Free Will To Sin?


#1

One Apologetic said this:

“It is impossible to sin in one’s sleep. In order to sin, one must have the use of his free will. …”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

^^^**^^^**^^^^^^^^**^*^

Is this believed by all? Because the homosexuality is a sin, and yet every public research organization and every private credible organization has stated homosexuality is not a concious decision, thus you have no free will… Can somebody resolve my paradox?


#2

[quote=OkeyDokei]Because the homosexuality is a sin, and yet every public research organization and every private credible organization has stated homosexuality is not a concious decision, thus you have no free will… Can somebody resolve my paradox?
[/quote]

Gay people don’t decide whether or not they sleep with someone? What happens? They just spontaneously get teleported into bed together against their will? Or are you saying that gay people are sub-human and don’t have the ability to exercise self control like the rest of the race does?

Following your line of thinking… a straight man who sleeps with a woman to whom he is not married can not sin because he has no free will to not sleep with her. Does that really make any sense?


#3

You misunderstood me i believe. The choice of sexual orientation is not a decision of your free will. But, the choice of refraining from performing seuxal acts is.

Is this the general view? It is okay to be attracted to same sex as long as you bottle up your sexual tension your entire life?

Hmmm funny if this is the view, because 5% of the religious servants (preists, ministers, ect) have history of sexual misconduct with same sex children.


#4

[quote=Timidity]Gay people don’t decide whether or not they sleep with someone? What happens? That just spontaneously teleport into bed together?

Following your line of thinking… a straight man who sleeps with a woman to whom he is not married can not sin because he has no free will to not sleep with her. Does that really make any sense?
[/quote]

Right. It is the homosexual act that is sinful. Just like someone may have a genetic dispostion towards alcoholism, but it does not make an alcoholic’s drinking morally acceptable.

The whole “bottled-up” sexual tension thing is a lie from the sexual revolution. When one discerns the true purpose of love and the marital act, one can choose to act morally with no so-called pyschological problems.

Scott


#5

[quote=OkeyDokei]You misunderstood me i believe. The choice of sexual orientation is not a decision of your free will. But, the choice of refraining from performing seuxal acts is.

Is this the general view? It is okay to be attracted to same sex as long as you bottle up your sexual tension your entire life?

Hmmm funny if this is the view, because 5% of the religious servants (preists, ministers, ect) have history of sexual misconduct with same sex children.
[/quote]

Wow 5%. That means 95% bottle it up just fine. Saying celibacy causes child molestation is a crock.


#6

Bad analogy. Alchohol is something you can live without, say you never have any at all…You would never know your urge to have it. It is a flawed metaphor, i know what you were trying to convey though.

Did you even read my second post?

Is it your view that we need to tell these gay people to bottle up their sexual feelings their entire life? Never experiance sexual relief or sexual sensations?


#7

[quote=OkeyDokei]Is this the general view? It is okay to be attracted to same sex as long as you bottle up your sexual tension your entire life?
[/quote]

I can’t speak for the general view, but it is the teaching of the Church. Temptation is not a sin, acting on temptation is, whether straight or gay.


#8

5% of religious christian servants have sexual misconduct (Aka relations with male children, usually altar boys)…No other organizatin in history has hid this high of crime rate, let alone something so specific. Does this not disprove the problems of temptation and the church’s/bible’s view?

-Just a Christian in Question


#9

[quote=OkeyDokei]Bad analogy. Alchohol is something you can live without, say you never have any at all…You would never know your urge to have it. It is a flawed metaphor, i know what you were trying to convey though.

Did you even read my second post?

Is it your view that we need to tell these gay people to bottle up their sexual feelings their entire life? Never experiance sexual relief or sexual sensations?
[/quote]

You can live without sex. The body gets rid of sexual tension naturally. We are all called to live a chaste life. All sex outside of marriage is sinful. So is masturbation. Since the sacrament of marriage is onlt valid on a man and a woman, homosexual sex is sinful always. Many single people are single and never find someone to marry. They survive just fine.


#10

[quote=OkeyDokei]5% of religious christian servants have sexual misconduct (Aka relations with male children, usually altar boys)…No other organizatin in history has hid this high of crime rate, let alone something so specific. Does this not disprove the problems of temptation and the church’s/bible’s view?

-Just a Christian in Question
[/quote]

Please cite your sources.


#11

[quote=OkeyDokei]Bad analogy. Alchohol is something you can live without, say you never have any at all…You would never know your urge to have it. It is a flawed metaphor, i know what you were trying to convey though.

[/quote]

No it’s not a bad analogy because acts of sodomy are something you can live without. One would not necessarily know an urge to commit such an act.

Did you even read my second post?

Yes.

Is it your view that we need to tell these gay people to bottle up their sexual feelings their entire life? Never experiance sexual relief or sexual sensations?

No, we don’t tell people to bottle up their feelings. We tell them to acknowledge their feelings with the understanding that acting on certain feelings is objectively right or wrong. You seem convinced that acting in accordance with chastity is bad for people. There is not a scintilla of evidence to suggest this.

Scott


#12

[quote=OkeyDokei]Is it your view that we need to tell these gay people to bottle up their sexual feelings their entire life?
[/quote]

We aren’t telling them this. This isn’t some arbitrary rule that we came up with to run other people’s lives. This is what God commands. We are powerless to change His commandments.


#13

Fact: Over 90% of Males have admitted to masturbating once in their life.

Fact: Over 70% of Males (Age 45 and under) admit to masturbating on a weekly basis.

Now, surely they do not go to hell because they masturbate. I’m sure these people are good christians as am I. We try to be kind to all people, we are forgiving, and generous. This one sin is repented in confession and we truly are sorry.

Yet, couldn’t a homosexual live a life this way as well? Live with homosexual acts, repent, go to heaven?

-Okey


#14

[quote=Genesis315]Please cite your sources.
[/quote]

Not only that, please acknowledge that the 5% number is no higher than in secular areas such as teacher-student, etc.

Scott


#15

[quote=OkeyDokei]Fact: Over 90% of Males have admitted to masturbating once in their life.

Fact: Over 70% of Males admit to masturbating on a weekly basis.

Now, surely they do not go to hell because they masturbate. I’m sure these people are good christians as am I. We try to be kind to all people, we are forgiving, and generous. This one sin is repented in confession and we truly are sorry.

Yet, couldn’t a homosexual live a life this way as well? Live with homosexual acts, repent, go to heaven?

-Okey
[/quote]

Again, sources please.

Well, no one has died from not masturbating. The body takes care of this naturally. Masturbation is a grave sin.

Yes, if they commit a homosexual act with full knowldge and consent and confess with a contrite heart and the resolve to sin no more, they will be absolved.


#16

[quote=OkeyDokei]Fact: Over 90% of Males have admitted to masturbating once in their life.

Fact: Over 70% of Males (Age 45 and under) admit to masturbating on a weekly basis.

Now, surely they do not go to hell because they masturbate. I’m sure these people are good christians as am I. We try to be kind to all people, we are forgiving, and generous. This one sin is repented in confession and we truly are sorry.

Yet, couldn’t a homosexual live a life this way as well? Live with homosexual acts, repent, go to heaven?

-Okey
[/quote]

Fact: that many people commit sin, does not make sin not sin.

Whether they go to Hell depends on their personal culpability. And then you admitted that this one sin is repented in confession and we are truly sorry. So yes, if a homosexual repents of his acts of sodomy, he will be forgiven. But which argument do you want to pursure? Whether homosexual acts are sinful? Whether homosexual acts are forgivable?

Scott


#17

[quote=OkeyDokei]5% of religious christian servants have sexual misconduct … Does this not disprove the problems of temptation and the church’s/bible’s view?
[/quote]

The sources I’ve come across indicate that the problem is actually less in the Catholic church than in other churches, so I would have to vote “no.”

[quote=OkeyDokei]No other organizatin in history has hid this high of crime rate,
[/quote]

Hyperbole. You’e being intellectually dishonest, Off the top of my head: the mafia, the Reagan cabinet, and the Tamery Hall administration.


#18

Whats the worry for the homosexuals, be gay, be sorry, live and forgive! :slight_smile:

Here is the 5% one, it wasnt the one i intended but i googled it and this is a just one of the first few i got. it is in accordance with my other facts, 6% and 4%…

religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex8.htm

“Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. 5 By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. Of these, 4% abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubertal children. **4”

And for the masturbation facts, ill get those too one sec
**


#19

[quote=Timidity]The sources I’ve come across indicate that the problem is actually less in the Catholic church than in other churches, so I would have to vote “no.”

Hyperbole. You’e being intellectually dishonest, Off the top of my head: the mafia, the Reagan cabinet, and the Tamery Hall administration.
[/quote]

!!! Perhaps you did not assume what i asuumed…CREDIBLE organizations…If you are going to compare our church to these groups i might just loose faith entirely!

Hold on guys, so many replies to adress it will take some time.


#20

[quote=OkeyDokei]One Apologetic said this:

“It is impossible to sin in one’s sleep. In order to sin, one must have the use of his free will. …”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

^^^**^^^**^^^^^^^^**^*^

Is this believed by all? Because the homosexuality is a sin, and yet every public research organization and every private credible organization has stated homosexuality is not a concious decision, thus you have no free will… Can somebody resolve my paradox?
[/quote]

no, homosexuality is not a sin, if you mean the condition or disorder of same sex attraction or homosexual inclinations, it is a disorder but a disorder is not a sin, although it may prove a temptation to sin.
Consensual homosexual activity however is a sin, and can only be done by a conscious decision. This would not apply in a case where one was raped or abused of course. But homosexuals do have free will on how they chose to use or abuse their bodies. No one is compelled to act out sexually, whether they engage illicit genital activity with a partner of the same or opposite sex. For a person to say his actions are at the mercy of his sex drive is to deny is human will and reduce him to the level of an animal.


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