Free will


#1

I’m a little confused regarding why the concept of free will is such a binding idea. If a Christian God gave us free will…how would we know the difference…if he didn’t.? Everyone states the “free will” clause ad nauseum…but is it correct to say …so what? If this is something that God gave us then we surely wouldn’t miss it if it indeed chose not to give it to us…correct? I guess it parallels “you don’t miss it until it’s gone”…BUT you surely wouldn’t miss it, nor realize a difference if you never had it…?..I realize that this is a bit philosophical…but I hear the “free will” clause dropped so often that it compels me to wander why a God would give stupid humans a knife to stick ourselves with??? To put it in such a rudimentary way…But then reveal to us that …hey…I gave you the choice to stick yourself…knowing full good and well that a good portion of the public will indeed stick themselves?? That doesn’t sound supernatural at all…it sounds completely human… Kind of like…selling cigarettes.


#2

[quote=Natas]I’m a little confused regarding why the concept of free will is such a binding idea. If a Christian God gave us free will…how would we know the difference…if he didn’t.? Everyone states the “free will” clause ad nauseum…but is it correct to say …so what? If this is something that God gave us then we surely wouldn’t miss it if it indeed chose not to give it to us…correct? I guess it parallels “you don’t miss it until it’s gone”…BUT you surely wouldn’t miss it, nor realize a difference if you never had it…?..I realize that this is a bit philosophical…but I hear the “free will” clause dropped so often that it compels me to wander why a God would give stupid humans a knife to stick ourselves with??? To put it in such a rudimentary way…But then reveal to us that …hey…I gave you the choice to stick yourself…knowing full good and well that a good portion of the public will indeed stick themselves?? That doesn’t sound supernatural at all…it sounds completely human… Kind of like…selling cigarettes.
[/quote]

I think we recognize free will when we don’t follow Gods plan. God wouldn’t make us break His laws, so if there is sin, then there is freewill.

Likewise, however, love is evidence of freewill. A robot or a plant can’t love you. Is it love if it’s forced? Love requires freewill. We wouldn’t love without it.

How does that sound?


#3

God does not want us to be robots–we have the freedom to choose to love Him, or to reject Him–He will not force us either way. Since we have free will in matters of God, that means we have free will in all areas…which helps to illuminate why the world is such a mess.

Without free will, we would be robots.


#4

From The Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach, Chapter 16:

11: Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
12: Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man.
13: The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him.
14: It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
15: If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16: He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
17: Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
18: For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19: his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.
20: He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin.


#5

Love must be free. Without free will, we could not love.


#6

[quote=Natas]I’m a little confused regarding why the concept of free will is such a binding idea. If a Christian God gave us free will…how would we know the difference…if he didn’t.? Everyone states the “free will” clause ad nauseum…but is it correct to say …so what? If this is something that God gave us then we surely wouldn’t miss it if it indeed chose not to give it to us…correct? I guess it parallels “you don’t miss it until it’s gone”…BUT you surely wouldn’t miss it, nor realize a difference if you never had it…?..I realize that this is a bit philosophical…but I hear the “free will” clause dropped so often that it compels me to wander why a God would give stupid humans a knife to stick ourselves with??? To put it in such a rudimentary way…But then reveal to us that …hey…I gave you the choice to stick yourself…knowing full good and well that a good portion of the public will indeed stick themselves?? That doesn’t sound supernatural at all…it sounds completely human… Kind of like…selling cigarettes.
[/quote]

Lucifer chose to reject God, and look what happened to him!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_3_4.gif


#7

Well…what did happen? Apparently Satan is now a God himself correct? I mean he doesn’t die…he has supernatural powers, and apparently has a cozy little place outside time and space…like heaven. Except it’s for the “bad people”. Is Satan upset? Is he in pain…is it a bummer to be Satan? I’m sure no one knows… I think everyone is missing my point…and I guess it ties much deeper into the - what a call the boiled down product.

Can we all agree that Space is a huge place correct?..So this is it in a nutshell.
God created the universe.
God created within this universe a tiny, tiny, tiny…ok it’s probably the size of a grain of sand…(maybe smaller in relation) planet.
God created people and put them on this planet.
God gave the people free will…so they could either go his way…or go the highway.
So in a nutshell he’ll send you to hell…knowing full good and well that a huge portion will in fact go to hell…which in fact God created.
Does anyone ever sit down and think about it on this level? Take away all of the overthinking…take away all of the analytical reading of biblical text ad nauseum…this is what it boils down to.
I tell you…I’m almost certain I could create a God…a religion…the whole concept…and do a better job.


#8

1 person following God out of free will is more beautiful than a million mindless zombies. In my opinion it’s not that difficult to comprehend.


#9

[quote=Natas]Well…what did happen? Apparently Satan is now a God himself correct? I mean he doesn’t die…he has supernatural powers, and apparently has a cozy little place outside time and space…like heaven. Except it’s for the “bad people”. Is Satan upset? Is he in pain…is it a bummer to be Satan? I’m sure no one knows… I think everyone is missing my point…and I guess it ties much deeper into the - what a call the boiled down product.

Can we all agree that Space is a huge place correct?..So this is it in a nutshell.
God created the universe.
God created within this universe a tiny, tiny, tiny…ok it’s probably the size of a grain of sand…(maybe smaller in relation) planet.
God created people and put them on this planet.
God gave the people free will…so they could either go his way…or go the highway.
So in a nutshell he’ll send you to hell…knowing full good and well that a huge portion will in fact go to hell…which in fact God created.
Does anyone ever sit down and think about it on this level? Take away all of the overthinking…take away all of the analytical reading of biblical text ad nauseum…this is what it boils down to.
I tell you…I’m almost certain I could create a God…a religion…the whole concept…and do a better job.
[/quote]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying? Are you saying that you don’t we are all crazy and that God doesn’t exsit?

Just curious?


#10

[quote=MonicaC]I am not sure I understand what you are saying? Are you saying that you don’t we are all crazy and that God doesn’t exsit?

Just curious?
[/quote]

I’m not saying that God doesn’t exist…I’m postulating that if there is a Supernatural force in this universe (God)…that indeed CREATED this universe…then it is most likely not the God of the bible…more importantly - it is much, much more complex, powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent than anything in the Bible. I seriously doubt the word of man when it comes to the bible… To use a metaphor…the bible *smells too human *to be taken seriously as a text spawned from the supernatural God it so miserably tries to describe…Have you read the account of the supernatural…the miracles of the bible?..It is so rooted in the “parlance of the times”…that it’s almost funny.
For instance…God spoke with Moses …through a burning bush?..oh really. A burning bush. hmmmmm. Why would the most powerful force in the known universe speak to Moses with a burning bush??? It’s almost retarded.
Moses split the red sea…oh really. Why split the red sea…How about making the sea completely gone!..I’ll do you one better - forget walking across a desert …You’ll just be at your destination …right… now!. You see what I’m saying?..The miracles and supernatural things that happen in the bible sound like exactly what they probably are. Ancients sitting around a fire trying to push the envelope on what sounds truly remarkable when in reality it’s truly silly in comparison to what a God would be capable of doing…some of it is just a power above aesop fable style nonsense really. Does anyone think about this?


#11

[quote=Natas]I’m not saying that God doesn’t exist…I’m postulating that if there is a Supernatural force in this universe (God)…that indeed CREATED this universe…then it is most likely not the God of the bible…more importantly - it is much, much more complex, powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent than anything in the Bible. I seriously doubt the word of man when it comes to the bible… To use a metaphor…the bible *smells too human *to be taken seriously as a text spawned from the supernatural God it so miserably tries to describe…Have you read the account of the supernatural…the miracles of the bible?..It is so rooted in the “parlance of the times”…that it’s almost funny.
For instance…God spoke with Moses …through a burning bush?..oh really. A burning bush. hmmmmm. Why would the most powerful force in the known universe speak to Moses with a burning bush??? It’s almost retarded.
Moses split the red sea…oh really. Why split the red sea…How about making the sea completely gone!..I’ll do you one better - forget walking across a desert …You’ll just be at your destination …right… now!. You see what I’m saying?..The miracles and supernatural things that happen in the bible sound like exactly what they probably are. Ancients sitting around a fire trying to push the envelope on what sounds truly remarkable when in reality it’s truly silly in comparison to what a God would be capable of doing…some of it is just a power above aesop fable style nonsense really. Does anyone think about this?
[/quote]

I think you read too many comic books.


#12

I have no idea what this means…although I respect your opinion. We obviously have a different concept of what is beautiful.

[quote=Michael C]1 person following God out of free will is more beautiful than a million mindless zombies. In my opinion it’s not that difficult to comprehend.
[/quote]


#13

[quote=Scott_Lafrance]I think you read too many comic books.
[/quote]

hmmmmm. “I think you read too many comic books”… no, no…that just won’t do. I’m almost positive that you can do better than that. I’ll refund your nickel…and you can try again.


#14

[quote=Natas]hmmmmm. “I think you read too many comic books”… no, no…that just won’t do. I’m almost positive that you can do better than that. I’ll refund your nickel…and you can try again.
[/quote]

Just reading your profile and posting history, it is about the most accurate and appropriate thing that can be said about you and your positions. I would like to see someone come up with something better. I’ll retain the nickel as 1st prize.


#15

Hello Natas,

The only thing in existance worth allowing hatred, sin and damnation for is Love. You cannot love without the option to choose not to love. God’s Great Commandment to love God with all your heart, with all your strength, with all your mind and with all your soul and God’s Second Great Commandment to love your neighbor as yourself were given to sum up God’s ten commandments. To obey God is to love God and neighbor.

Gaining Love is worth the price in God’s eyes or He would not have allowed free will from which so many bad things also flow out from.

Please visit www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#16

What profile?..I didn’t get an email telling me it was mandatory that I have a profile?.. My positions?..Tell me Scott Lafrance…reader of comic books, purveyor of religious knowledge…what are my positions? Yea…go ahead and keep that nickel Scott…You can be one of the few people to win a prize in a contest that wasn’t held…tell your friends about it.

[quote=Scott_Lafrance]Just reading your profile and posting history, it is about the most accurate and appropriate thing that can be said about you and your positions. I would like to see someone come up with something better. I’ll retain the nickel as 1st prize.
[/quote]


#17

[quote=Natas]I’m not saying that God doesn’t exist…I’m postulating that if there is a Supernatural force in this universe (God)…that indeed CREATED this universe…then it is most likely not the God of the bible…more importantly - it is much, much more complex, powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent than anything in the Bible. I seriously doubt the word of man when it comes to the bible… To use a metaphor…the bible *smells too human *to be taken seriously as a text spawned from the supernatural God it so miserably tries to describe…Have you read the account of the supernatural…the miracles of the bible?..It is so rooted in the “parlance of the times”…that it’s almost funny.
For instance…God spoke with Moses …through a burning bush?..oh really. A burning bush. hmmmmm. Why would the most powerful force in the known universe speak to Moses with a burning bush??? It’s almost retarded.
Moses split the red sea…oh really. Why split the red sea…How about making the sea completely gone!..I’ll do you one better - forget walking across a desert …You’ll just be at your destination …right… now!. You see what I’m saying?..The miracles and supernatural things that happen in the bible sound like exactly what they probably are. Ancients sitting around a fire trying to push the envelope on what sounds truly remarkable when in reality it’s truly silly in comparison to what a God would be capable of doing…some of it is just a power above aesop fable style nonsense really. Does anyone think about this?
[/quote]

WHAT?!?!?! It sounds to me like you think this is a myth or something? I understand what you’re saying but I don’t. Take a deep breat my friend
:stuck_out_tongue:


#18

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_131.gif Someone stop the ride, I wanna get off…

[quote=Natas]What profile?..I didn’t get an email telling me it was mandatory that I have a profile?.. My positions?..Tell me Scott Lafrance…reader of comic books, purveyor of religious knowledge…what are my positions? Yea…go ahead and keep that nickel Scott…You can be one of the few people to win a prize in a contest that wasn’t held…tell your friends about it.
[/quote]


#19

[quote=Natas]I’m not saying that God doesn’t exist…I’m postulating that if there is a Supernatural force in this universe (God)…that indeed CREATED this universe…then it is most likely not the God of the bible…more importantly - it is much, much more complex, powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent than anything in the Bible. I seriously doubt the word of man when it comes to the bible… To use a metaphor…the bible *smells too human *to be taken seriously as a text spawned from the supernatural God it so miserably tries to describe…Have you read the account of the supernatural…the miracles of the bible?..It is so rooted in the “parlance of the times”…that it’s almost funny.
For instance…God spoke with Moses …through a burning bush?..oh really. A burning bush. hmmmmm. Why would the most powerful force in the known universe speak to Moses with a burning bush??? It’s almost retarded.
Moses split the red sea…oh really. Why split the red sea…How about making the sea completely gone!..I’ll do you one better - forget walking across a desert …You’ll just be at your destination …right… now!. You see what I’m saying?..The miracles and supernatural things that happen in the bible sound like exactly what they probably are. Ancients sitting around a fire trying to push the envelope on what sounds truly remarkable when in reality it’s truly silly in comparison to what a God would be capable of doing…some of it is just a power above aesop fable style nonsense really. Does anyone think about this?
[/quote]

WHAT?!?!?! It sounds to me like you think this is a myth or something? I understand what you’re saying but I don’t. Take a deep breath my friend
:stuck_out_tongue:


#20

natas is satan backwards guys, if you couldn’t figure that one out.

Satan, you are looking at this big picture too broadly. You need to pick one thing, and examine it. Find something about Christianity, one thing or premise, and lets discuss.


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