free will


#1

if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not?? and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...


#2

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:276345"]
if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not?? and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...

[/quote]

I think your viewing the question the wrong way, its like Jesus being completely human and completely God. The equation doesnt make 200%. Like a human with dual-nationality, they are not half one for each country.

From our position, our will is totally free, that is, free do do as we wish.

Our desires and goals are themselves not without bounds,however, we may need instruments to accomplish our will, like flying without planes.

Original sin complicates the matter further because our will now wants to take us down the wrong path.

God's perspective of providence is the other half of the question, the book of Hebrews says that he will never let us be tempted more than we can bear and so we ask him in return to lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

God provides grace and perseverance to his children.

As to why some and not others? not even the great doctor of the church Augustine knew....


#3

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:276345"]
if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not?? and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...

[/quote]

You are confusing causation with condition. People are certainly conditioned *(influenced) by their environments and those factors you mention, but this this not to say this rises to the level of *causation, ie, that these factors are sufficient to account for a person's actions.

St. Augustine once proved that the stars might influence people, but could not be said to fully cause their actions, because of identical twins who might go on to lead different lives. Something similar applies here. People are born into similar situations, but go on to lead different lives. This is because they have free will, they choose to respond to their situations differently.


#4

The mechanics may well be a mystery. But, if you think about it, if people weren’t able to “choose differently” it wouldn’t be a “free” will, would it? Rather, God’s gift truly is a “free will.”


#5

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:276345"]
if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not??

[/quote]

It is people's choice to sin or not to sin. Some choose one way, some another. That's free will.

and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...

Satan may tempt us. Culture may provide a bad example. But it is we, who ultimately make the choice.

We may at times for various reasons lose our ability to choose freely. Such may be the case during addiction or during extremely emotional moments. We are not held fully culpable for the acts we might commit during those times because our acts lack "full consent of the will."


#6

[quote="christosdavid, post:2, topic:276345"]
I think your viewing the question the wrong way, its like Jesus being completely human and completely God. The equation doesnt make 200%. Like a human with dual-nationality, they are not half one for each country.

From our position, our will is totally free, that is, free do do as we wish.

Our desires and goals are themselves not without bounds,however, we may need instruments to accomplish our will, like flying without planes.

Original sin complicates the matter further because our will now wants to take us down the wrong path.

God's perspective of providence is the other half of the question, the book of Hebrews says that he will never let us be tempted more than we can bear and so we ask him in return to lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

God provides grace and perseverance to his children.

As to why some and not others? not even the great doctor of the church Augustine knew....

[/quote]

ty for a normal, reasonable answer, unlike many others I've seen


#7

[quote="danserr, post:3, topic:276345"]
You are confusing causation with condition. People are certainly conditioned *(influenced) by their environments and those factors you mention, but this this not to say this rises to the level of *causation, ie, that these factors are sufficient to account for a person's actions.

.

[/quote]

so, becasue they are influenced/conditioned, it's not total free will??


#8

[quote="MarcoPolo, post:4, topic:276345"]
The mechanics may well be a mystery. But, if you think about it, if people weren't able to "choose differently" it wouldn't be a "free" will, would it? Rather, God's gift truly is a "free will."

[/quote]

then why do some kill and rape??? why is their free will ''different''??


#9

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:6, topic:276345"]
ty for a normal, reasonable answer, unlike many others I've seen

[/quote]

normal?????? lol!!!!!

I think our wills are serverely limited, by society, culture, dna, actual ability to carry out our wills.... but for all that they are our will and we use it to try to get what we want.

To acheive our will of flying we need aircraft

To acheive our will of holiness we need God's help because our will is conflicted in this area (like Paul - the good that I wish to do I do not and the evil I wish not I do - he concludes it is no longer he that sins but sin living within him [as if it were an alien entity])

any clearer? like mud?


#10

[quote="kch86, post:5, topic:276345"]
It is people's choice to sin or not to sin. Some choose one way, some another. That's free will.

Satan may tempt us. Culture may provide a bad example. But it is we, who ultimately make the choice.

We may at times for various reasons lose our ability to choose freely. Such may be the case during addiction or during extremely emotional moments. We are not held fully culpable for the acts we might commit during those times because our acts lack "full consent of the will."

[/quote]

so, sometimes there is not total free will??I agree that some emotional moments--such as divorce, job loss, etc--people will be enraged enough to kill 'irrationally'....they don't even think if it's a sin/going to jail or hell, they just react...so there really is no ''choosing'', is there???..


#11

Yes, sometimes our free will is limited by circumstances outside of our control. We do generally have a choice, however, and where we do have that choice, we are held morally responsible for our actions.


#12

Because they used their “free” will to kill and rape. I think God is that amazing that He can bestow a gift like that that is truly “free.” The mechanics still may be a mystery, but that’s ok.


#13

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:7, topic:276345"]
so, becasue they are influenced/conditioned, it's not total free will??

[/quote]

I don't think the fact that people are conditioned or influenced by their circumstances means there is not total free will.

You seem to want "total free will" to mean "not conditioned or influenced in any way whatsoever." I don't think that this is a reasonable definition, though. Here is why, that would mean that if my wife says to me "please pass the mustard" and I do it, then I don't have free will because I was responding to her request. I don't think that is reasonable.

I think we should just say that people have free will if their actions are not totally caused by outside factors. And I think it is clear that we have this kind of free will, partly for the reason I have said. That people grow up in very similar circumstances, but turn out differently. So we can't account for how people behave only by social, economic, political etc factors.

So, in short, I would say that just because people are influenced does not mean that there is not free will.


#14

No one says there is TOTAL free will, that’s a false straw man fallacy.

BTW, if there is no free will, why do some resist sin while others succomb to it?


#15

[quote="danserr, post:13, topic:276345"]
I don't think the fact that people are conditioned or influenced by their circumstances means there is not total free will.

You seem to want "total free will" to mean "not conditioned or influenced in any way whatsoever." I don't think that this is a reasonable definition, though. Here is why, that would mean that if my wife says to me "please pass the mustard" and I do it, then I don't have free will because I was responding to her request. I don't think that is reasonable.

I think we should just say that people have free will if their actions are not totally caused by outside factors. And I think it is clear that we have this kind of free will, partly for the reason I have said. That people grow up in very similar circumstances, but turn out differently. So we can't account for how people behave only by social, economic, political etc factors.

So, in short, I would say that just because people are influenced does not mean that there is not free will.

[/quote]

'free' does not mean 'influenced', does it???--if you look up the definition of influence, it means free will is not only not total, these factors 'influencing' someone ''degrades'' so called free will--simply put<>if someone is influenced by the LEAST amount, there can be no TOTAL free will

f


#16

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:276345"]
if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not?? and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...

[/quote]

It is definitely not this easy.

There are conditions, moral agents, etc.

Choices can be conditioned while they appear to be "freely" determined.

On the other hand,

How can you be held accountable for your actions if you are not freely able to make them?

Jesus said himself that no one can come to Him unless *drawn * by the Father. Notice He said *drawn **not *forced.

On the other hand,

You are either a servant to Christ or a slave to sin.

In the end, the only thing that keeps my sanity in check is that God made us in Their image and if I am seeking Christ, it is because the Father has drawn this wretched man to His Son, and I, in my total inability to deserve it, am a recipient of His Grace.

God Bless,

Jose


#17

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:276345"]
if there is TOTAL free will, then why do some succomb to sin and others do not?? and if you say it's because of satan, then why do some succomb to satan and some do not???if you say some accept jesus and others don't, then why??by total, I mean socio-economic, culture, chemicals, etc will play NO role in a choice to sin...

[/quote]

We have total freedom to will. But to implement our will, we need assistance. Again we are free to seek or not seek assistance. At every stage we need to exercise our free will.


#18

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