Fundamental Independent Baptist Allegation:


#1

1John 5:13 posted on another thread (off topic) but worth discussing.
What was the final authority for the early Christians

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
11 Timothy 3:16

What do the Scriptures teach about heaven? Can a person be 100% sure they will go to heaven when they die?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13

Will I get into Heaven if my good works outweigh my bad works?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God : Not of works lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8,9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us…
Titus 3:5


#2

He further stated:

My Catholic friend,

When you die and stand before God, and He asks you, why should I let you into My Heaven what will be your reply?
Please back up your answer with Scripture.

Thank You

Please feel free to answer this question.
Pax vobiscum,


#3

[quote=Church Militant]He further stated:

Please feel free to answer this question.
Pax vobiscum,
[/quote]

I don’t find in scripture God asking US why we think He should let us in heaven.

Fiat


#4

Scripture doesn’t give you a pass to heaven Jesus does.If you say your 100% sure you will go to heaven are you not taking the authority of judgement away from the judge?tHE WORKS ARGUMENT SHOULDN’T BE THERE BECAUSE CATHOLICS DON’T BELIEVE WE ARE SAVED BY GOOD WORKS:rolleyes: Sometimes I think they look at Mother Teresa and get a spiritual envy thing going on.They don’t realise that without Grace Mother Teresa could not have done it.God Bless


#5

When you die and stand before God, and He asks you, why should I let you into My Heaven what will be your reply?
Please back up your answer with Scripture.

  1. I have repented of my sins (Acts 2:38)

  2. I been justified by faith (Eph 2:8); and

  3. By baptism (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor. 6:11, 1 Pet. 3:21);

  4. Having been justified, I have cooperated with grace to do the good works you (God) have prepared for me to do by your strength (Eph. 2:10), thus working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).


#6

[quote=John_Henry]1) I have repented of my sins (Acts 2:38)

  1. I been justified by faith (Eph 2:8); and

  2. By baptism (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor. 6:11, 1 Pet. 3:21);

  3. Having been justified, I have cooperated with grace to do the good works you (God) have prepared for me to do by your strength (Eph. 2:10), thus working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).
    [/quote]

Very well answered and Catholic ALL the way.
Maybe he should have a look at this page (And all the footnotes as well) from the CCC on the Vatican website.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM


#7

The Protestant position taken by the originator of the question (above) misunderstands the Catholic teaching on salvation and works. He apparently assumes that because we disagree with *sola fide * we must be taking the position that our works alone get us into Heaven. Any beginning apologist can knock down that straw man. But I have yet to see a strong argument against the *real * Catholic position on salvation.

I like the way Catholic Answers summarizes the doctrine on its website: See, “Assurance of Salvation” under the Library link:

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Peace and Charity,


#8

[quote=John_Henry]1) I have repented of my sins (Acts 2:38)

  1. I been justified by faith (Eph 2:8); and

  2. By baptism (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor. 6:11, 1 Pet. 3:21);

  3. Having been justified, I have cooperated with grace to do the good works you (God) have prepared for me to do by your strength (Eph. 2:10), thus working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).
    [/quote]

This is an excellent answer and deserves top marks. It responds perfectly to the fundamentalist Baptist position.

Maggie


#9

The problem with the Baptist Fundamentalist Evangelical position is that it conveniently neglects to point to the Scriptures that tell us that we will not be given some form of examination question to enter into heaven.

Jesus told us many things about getting into the Kingdom of Heaven and He told us how difficult it will be for some to enter:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the amount you measure out is the amount you will be given.” (Mt. 7:1-3)

Here is warning number one for all of the Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists and others who judge Catholics and call us idolators. If they condemn us to hell, then what kind of condemnation awaits those who make false accusations?

“So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the meaning of the Law and the Prophets” (Mt 7: 12)

This is an indication that how we treat others will affect our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

“Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to perdition is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Mt 7: 23-14)

“It is not those who say to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of the Father in heaven. When the day comes, many will say to me ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me you evil men.” (Mt 7: 21-23)

The fundamentalist claim that all one has to do is say a sinner’s prayer and he or she is automatically saved. Yet the words above give a lie to what they preach as Once Saved Always Saved. They do not understand that when they condemn others, especially Catholics, and they make false claims such as Catholics are blasphemous idolators because we allegedly “worship” Mary, and when they refuse to give Mary the respect that is due because of her role as Mother of God, then they are deceiving themselves about salvation.

Maggie


#10

:smiley: Bump :smiley:


#11
                           My Catholic friend,

When you die and stand before God, and He asks you, why should I let you into My Heaven what will be your reply?
Please back up your answer with Scripture.

Thank You

Did he ask Moses to justify his presence and his approach to the burning bush, or did he ask Moses to take off his sandals? This is the God who listened very politely to Job go on and on and then asked him who he (Job) was to tell God anything. What, you want me to go and tell God to his face how he should run things and why?

This question must be asking something other than it says. Maybe the context should be changed. Imagine a man in fear for his life, which I presume original questioner has in mind. What man, standing by the horns of the altar, would embark upon a self-explanatory chat rather than grab the horns?

Questions like this drive me nuts. Does the question have no sensibility of being there in the very presence of the LORD? Most men would be overwhelmed like Peter who started to build a booth. Anyway, that’s what a question like that brings to my mind.


#12

How about this one:
“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will rise him on the last day” - John 6: 54


#13

“The fundamentalist claim that all one has to do is say a sinner’s prayer and he or she is automatically saved.”

Ironcially, this position is a “salvation by WORKS” stance… something they blame we Catholics for.

The above statement claims that if you perform THIS work (sayin a sinner’s prayer)… you will have earned salvation.

It is also a TRADITION of men.

It is also nonBiblical. I don’t see “saying a sinner’s prayer” will save. Why didn’t Jesus in the NT ever run around asking “are you saved?.. if not… here is this prayer…”


#14

There is nothing unusual about Protestanism except…

1 No where in the Bible does it say “saved by faith alone”…
2 No where in the Bible is the “sinners prayer” recorded…
3 No where in the Bible does it say “scripture alone”…
4 No where in the Bible does it say “Once saved always saved”…

Etc. Etc. Etc.

You kind of wonder after a while where they get their doctrines? It sure ain’t from the Bible!

Thanks

Joe.


#15

All right, this is what I was taught by a pastor of an Independent Baptist Church. If you are saved then you are a new person and you won’t want to sin. This way Independent Baptists can still believe in once saved, always saved and yet dismiss certain people as Christians. SO if after you say the sinners prayer you go out and kill a bunch of people, then you weren’t Christian to begin with. I felt that far from giving me a sense of comfort, this belief actually made me doubt my salvation.

I should point out in fairness to Independent Baptist Churches, that withen the denomination, individual churches can have different beliefs. What I was taught might not be taught in all such churches.


#16

I don’t know about anyone else. My plan,

appearing before God, is to throw myself at
His feet and beg for mercy from Mercy Himself.

reen12

I pray to the God of Israel and hope that Jesus
is the Messiah.


#17

[quote=Buckeyejoe]There is nothing unusual about Protestanism except…

1 No where in the Bible does it say “saved by faith alone”…
2 No where in the Bible is the “sinners prayer” recorded…
3 No where in the Bible does it say “scripture alone”…
4 No where in the Bible does it say “Once saved always saved”…

Etc. Etc. Etc.

You kind of wonder after a while where they get their doctrines? It sure ain’t from the Bible!

Thanks

Joe.
[/quote]

Yeah I wonder too. :ehh: :hmmm:


#18

MATTHEW 25: 31-46


#19

[quote=deb1]All right, this is what I was taught by a pastor of an Independent Baptist Church. If you are saved then you are a new person and you won’t want to sin. This way Independent Baptists can still believe in once saved, always saved and yet dismiss certain people as Christians. SO if after you say the sinners prayer you go out and kill a bunch of people, then you weren’t Christian to begin with. I felt that far from giving me a sense of comfort, this belief actually made me doubt my salvation.
[/quote]

See, this is the main problem. No one just stops sinning after reciting the sinner’s prayer. So, are none of them actually Christians?


#20

Excellent answers all…I think you *must *incorporate James 2:24 (or all of James 2 for that matter) into your position and ask them to answer how the only time the phrase “by faith alone” appears in Scripture it is prefaced by a NOT! The NAB reads “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

The Fundamental Independent Baptist position is that justification (imputation of righteousness as opposed to the infusion of righteousness consistent with the Catholic position) occurs the instant of the sinners prayer, and that the rest of the believer’s life is devoted to sanctification, or to put it more simply, “becoming Christlike”.

Notice how in James 2:22, Abraham’s faith is “completed by the works”. It is a hard passage for the amateur fundamentalist apologist to deal with, and most likely to be shrugged off with a inadequate excuse. A good exegesis of James 2 is invaluable to a Catholic/Orthodox apologist.


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