Fundamentalism


#1

Well, I’ve been on a struggle between Fundamentalism and Catholicism for about 2 years now. I’ve never abandoned the Church, and have maintained in a state of grace and attended Mass as required. But in the back of my mind, the fear of Hell has not gone away. I have heard the claims of Fundamentalists that this Church is a false religion, and I have read the responses to many of the claims on Catholic Answers and various other articles. I saw this today, and it sums up many of my doubts. This seems to be a very radical Fundamentalist and I don’t know if I can shake the fear on my own. Please take a look if possible and just help me be sure that our Church does not lead to Hell.

This was the article: atruechurch.info/catholicism.html


#2

I read it, and to me it’s just pure garbage. I wish I could help you, but I don’t know how one can refute nonsense. Some people are fanatics, and will continue to spout this stuff, no matter what we do or say.

I’ll pray that you will find happiness in the Church.


#3

Rubbish! The Catholic Church (there is no such thing as the the Roman Catholic Church!) was started by Jesus Christ, Himself, while He was still on Earth. Of course it will lead NO ONE to hell. You would be better served to stop reading these fundamentalist authors and have a more active prayer life.

A Church and a school I drive by would happen to disagree with you, haha.

Really? With all due respect, would you mind elaborating on that a little bit?

Well, I think I understand the idea that you’re trying to reference - that Roman Catholic Church doesn’t refer to the Church as a whole, but simply Catholic Church does. However, yes, the Roman Catholic Chutch does exist - it refers to the particular church of the West that follows the Latin Rite.

Mya God bless you all abundantly and forever! :slight_smile:

Sorry for asking. I’m a 15 year old teenager, I’ve been Baptised, I’ve received Penance and Renconciliation, Holy Eucharist, and been Confirmed. It’s not like suddenly I decided to come on here to stir people up. I had a genuine concern, I was on the verge of tears to see our Doctrine being taken apart so quickly.

I suppose it was ridiculous asking here, as I could’ve figured it out myself. I’m well versed in most of the Doctrine and I’m starting to research the history to support the Church’s authority, and this will likely help me understand. I’m beginning to read the Gospels, and other parts of the New Testament. A few days ago I was feeling much more firm, knowing how glorious our Church is. Why do Fundamentalists do this? Are they the wolves that the Bible warns about?

I suppose my journey in faith has a long way to go. I just get too easily swayed. I was reading the article mainly to be sure I’m doing the right thing. Salvation is so serious, and I want to live eternally with God.

Thanks to all,
Joseph

I appreciate this, this will most likely help the most. No I haven’t read anything related to conversions to Catholicism.

I suppose the reason it ended up like that is because these are the only two Churches that can have a valid claim to stem back to Christ. What I mean is that these Fundamentalists say that following the Bible alone allows you to become a member of the church Christ created. The Catholic Church has history behind it, and there aren’t any other organized churches that have the history to be able to claim origin prior to 1054. This is why I get torn. Fundamentalists use our Doctrine and Sacred Scripture to attempt to form contradictions, and that makes me wonder if their claim is true. Then I go reading Fundamentalist literature, then I read Catholic literature, then I doubt, then I feel firm, then I doubt. I just want to know I’m going to Heaven.

One thing I wonder is, did Jesus create the Roman Catholic Church or the Catholic Church? When was the Latin Roman Rite instituted in comparison to the Catholic Church, as in the Universal Church. Learning of the Rites really was one of the most influential pieces I could ever learn in knowing this is the One True Church. I suppose it’s knowing that 28 or so different churches, are all just members of Christ’s Church, the one he instituted before his Death. That really impressed me. Another question I had, does the Roman Rite exceed in importance over the other Rites?


#4

Ok so then do the non-Catholic Protestants that baptize infants go to Hell? Or what about the Lutherans and Anglicans that teach the literal presence?

This guy not only completely misrepresents, misunderstands, and outright lies about Catholic Doctrine but he also assumes every Protestant is like him
Which they aren’t.

Your Church, if you’re really a Catholic, does not lead to Hell.

And if you’re not, as I was also a former Protestant, try learning about the Church instead of believing these half baked fictions.


#5

You’re not going to Hell for being Catholic. If you’re afraid of that, then pray to God to lead you and He will. I’ve been torn between Evangelicalism and Catholicism for years now, and God has continued to guide me closer to Him through the Church I attend. However, God may have great plans for you in the CC.

It shouldn’t be “Us vs them.” Listen to your Pope, he’s a very level headed guy and loves Evangelicals, and we are called to love him too; and I hope we do that. Fundamentalists are often radical and crazy, so it’s good to avoid them.


#6

It is this very type of vitriolic trash that drove me away from Christianity for years. I imagine I am not alone. The Catholic Church changed and even saved my life. I have “broken bread” with fundamentalists before. Their way offered me nothing but despair. I pray they will come around.


#7

Maybe you should read something else. Like maybe books by former fundamentalists who became Catholic.

If you have not read these yet, I recommend:

  • Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic* by David Currie. I read it as a teen, when I was going through my questioning phase. It really help me to organize my thoughts on Catholicism.

  • Catholicism and Fundamentalism* by Karl Keating, I have not read it, but I have heard from reputable people that it is good.


#8

These Bible verses have been taken out of context with false meanings to tempt you away from The True Church (One, Holy , Catholic, Apostolic,) Church. These are The Four Marks
of The Roman Catholic Church, The original, true, Church that Jesus founded. We are one in beliefs, unlike the 30,000 plus Protestant denominations. We are Holy because we have the fullness of truth. Our dogmas, and doctrines are based on Jesus, The Bible and Sacred Tradition. Our Church, through the Inspiration of The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. The original twelve apostles were eyewitnesses to most of The New Testament events.

We follow Jesus through His teachings which are the teachings of The Church. We have the fullness of Truth. Obeying Jesus, following His commandments, His teachings which are the teachings of The Church, and the Sacraments are the surest paths to Heaven.
We are Catholic, which means Univeral, the same Mass ane beliefs everywhere in the world
We are in a direct lineage from the Apostles and we are called to be Apostles.
It is The Mass, The Eucharist, Confession and the truth that our Church shows us the way to Heaven which keeps me Catholic.Praying for you. See a priest,read the Catechism for answers.RCIA could help too.


#9

You need to be more discerning about what you read on the internet and not be so easily swayed. The Catholic Church has been around since Jesus started it and fundamentakists have only been around for roughly 500 years. Who do you think has more authority?


#10

This website is awful, although it reminds me of some of the fundamentalist Baptists I grew up around. Some of the quoted texts are out of date and have been misleadingly edited. For example, the one on homosexuality is from the 1994 edition of the Cathechism. In the subsequent edition, the sentence, “They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial” was removed and replace by the sentence, “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.” The fundamentalist website conveniently leaves out the next section which starts, “Homosexual persons are called to chastity…”


#11

You fear that the Church created by Christ himself is false? You suspect that a church created by a modern man in Oklahoma, rejecting Christ’s Church, is somehow inspired?


#12

Both are excellent. I read & reread Keating’s book to tatters.


#13

Joseph, we love you as our true brother in Christ. You have every right to ask.questions, we all have questions. I never thought you were trying to stir things up. You seem to be a sincere young man who.is seeking God with his whole heart and wants to know the truth. God knows you are looking for Him and He loves that. The fact you are trying so hard to follow God means He is already near to you, inviting you to be Even Closer.

Now maybe some of our answers sounded a bit harsh. We need to remember that we have been at this for many years and you are still young and learning. It might seem obvious to us that we are the True, Original Church started by Jesus but maybe noone taught you that and it is a new concept. We should more patient. Also, we are not mad at you. Sometimes a written message come across in a different tone than it was intended because the benefit of hearing and seeing the person is not there.
Anyway, keep close to Jesus and Mary. Ask them to guide you. They will.help you in all things, especially your quest for holiness. If it helps to talk to a priest or join a Catholic youth group, do it. We will pray for you. Keep close to the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Confession.


#14

if you are already Catholic you should be asking a priest these questions. these are good questions and you are trying to understand the faith which is good. I have heard a good book is Catholicism for Dummies (don’t be offended by the title). You might be able to find it at your library. For someone so young, you are asking important questions.


#15

Thank you. This helps a lot! I am back on track and ready to continue studying. Why do you think some people are so hard of heart to accept the truth?

Thanks, I will be sure to take a look!


#16

There are much better resources available than me. Lots are here on Catholic Answers, and I’m sure you’ve read them. I suggest you do again. The fundamentalist’s page is garbage and misrepresentation s. Perhaps I should dismiss it at that. You seem very troubled, though. Here’s a hastily put together response to the article. I’ve done this on my phone and late at night, so I’m sure it’s riddled with typos and many hilarious auto corrects.

I. Forbidding to marry and abstaining from foods.

The fundamentalist author is misconstruing Paul’s message. In Paul’s time there were so-called Christians going around preaching false gospels. There were those who preached against marriage and all sexual relations. There were also the Judaizers, who preached that Christians still needed to follow the old Jewish dietary laws and must not eat “temple food” which may have been offered to idols. Paul is referring specifically to these groups in their historical context. Certainly Paul’s words continue indefinitely into the future. However, the Church does NOT forbid marriage. A chaste life is a choice, and it’s a choice that Paul chose for himself and encouraged for others. However, the Church has always taught that marriage is good and is to be encouraged. Unlike groups like the Cathars, that forbade sex and taught that the material world was evil. The Church also holds that all foods are clean. Fasting is NOT what Paul was referring, too. He was referring to universal dietary restrictions like what is described above.

II. The Sacraments.

These were instituted by Christ. Christ gives the Apostles the power to forgive OR RETAIN sins at the end of his ministry, something they could only have judged if they listened to confessions. Christ told us that we must be baptized by water and spirit, and to put it in context, he this is sandwiched in the Gospel between Christ’s own water baptism and when Christ starts his ministry and has his apostles baptize others. The gospel of John put’s Jesus’ quote immediately between explicit references to water baptism. There are frequent references to Baptism in the new testament, and it’s a huge stretch to say that these did not involve water. Baptism by water was also the practice of the earliest church. You find no dissension on this matter in the earliest documentation we have. We do not use baptism to wash away dirt. To be baptized and be submerged under water is to die with Christ on the cross, and to be reborn a new man. It’s a circumcision of the heart, as foretold in the OT. Jesus commands his disciples to baptize all nations before his ascension. Jewish custom circumcized their children on the eighth day as newborns. They did not wait for them to grow older and accept the covenant (many near east nations practiced circumcision at 13, not the Jews). The Jews brought their infants into God’s covenant. Catholics do the same. Your fundamentalist source cherry picks a few quotes. Those quotes are beautiful, mind, but they do NOT sum up the entire Bible, or even the four gospels. They must be taken in context with the rest of scripture.

III The Eucharist.

Paul calls on us to discern the flesh and blood of the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11. The three synoptic gospels make it clear that Jesus declared the bread and wine his body and blood. Your fundamentalist author bastardizes John 6. Please read the entire bread of life discourse. When Jesus spoke of the spirit giving life and the flesh being of no avail, he in no way contradicted what he had stated four times earlier, that his flesh is true food, that his flesh is the bread of life. Jesus was using a common idiom to tell people who couldn’t wrap their minds around what he was saying that their human reasoning/logic would have trouble understanding (the flesh is of no avail). Again, that was an expression. If it were otherwise, he would not have lost almost all of his disciples immediately after saying it. If this was Jesus saying “hey guys, I’m just speaking metaphorically,” his super enthused followers would have latched onto that and stayed. They didn’t. It seems as if only the Twelve remained, and even they don’t seem to understand what Jesus meant. Just read their response. The earliest writings we have also show that from the earliest days the Fathers believed in the real presence and even a compete change into flesh and blood. This wasn’t an invention of the Middle Ages.

I suggest reading Brant Pitre’s “The Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.” Jesus being the bread of life has many types in the Old Testament, from the Passover, to the heavenly manna (kept in the Holy of Holies), to the Bread of the Presence (kept in the Tabernacle and venerated by Jewish men on Pilgramage three times a year).


#17

IV Idolatry

Do fundamentalists ask others to pray for them and loved ones? I would hope so! Saint Paul did the same. Fundamentalists ask for the intercession of friends and neighbors and fellow Church goers all the time! If Christ is the one mediator (and Catholics agree he is), how does this help? Shouldn’t they just go straight to Christ? Doesn’t asking others to also pray undermine Christ’s role? According to this fundamentalist, it must, but obviously the answer must be it doesn’t, unless you want to call Saint Paul a heretic! The truth is fundamentalists do this all the time, they just don’t use the word “intercession.”

The saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are in God’s presence. They are his friends. We ask for their intercession. Their position makes them good prayers and more effective interceders on our behalf. And those in heaven do hear our prayers, as evidenced in Revelation. We venerate them too because in doing so we also venerate Christ.

On images, this is false and doesn’t understand how idolatry worked in ancient times, when people actually believed a spirit was literally in the idol. Catholics do not believe depictions of angels and saints and Jesus contain spirits. We also don’t treat them as gods. The Israelites themselves were commanded to carve golden Cherubim (wait… Angels which are in heaven?!) on the ark of the covenant, and the temple veil was also very decorated as well. Plus there is more, about God now having revealed himself to us visibly in Jesus, that as Jesus said, those who have seen him have also seen the Father. I’m sure there’s much more that can be said here.

On Mary… Listen, this fundamentalist doesn’t understand the saints, he obviously won’t understand Mary without that basis. Fundamentalists also fail to see Jesus as ruling over a functioning kingdom. Jesus is the heir of David. He is a Davidic king. This is the fulfillment of the covenant with David. In the Davidic Kingdom, the King’s mother was widely recognized as the Queen, even over the King’s wife (or wives). The Queen Mother had a venerated role within the court. Many petitioners went to her instead of the king with their petitions, knowing requests coming from her would more likely be honored. The kings treated their Queen Mothers with great respect. But this in no way undermined the fact that the King was the highest authority, that he was the annointed one, the Son of God. The Davidic Kingdom serves as a type for Jesus’ own kingship. Mary has a functional role in her son’s kingdom. That’s not because God has limitations (he doesn’t), it’s just how he’s seen fit to do things. Jesus was a faithful Jew. He is God, but he’s also fully human, and honors his mother as a son and king should.

V Lies

If Christ explicitly and absolutely told us to call no man Father, then why do we call our biological fathers father? Either it’s an absolute or it isn’t. It would also be problematic for Saint Paul, considering he many times likened himself to a father to his churches. Christ used hyperbole in his teachings (if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off). This is no different.

The author clearly demonstrates ignorance on the Church’s position on homosexuals (the Church acknowledges that same sex attraction is an issue for some members, but in no uncertain terms condemns homosexual activities… The author acts like we embrace practicing homosexuals as if it’s not sinful).

I already discussed infant baptisms, but to add… Nowhere in scripture is it implied or even hinted at that we should only baptize adults. Paul himself mentions baptizing whole households.

The author mischaracterized what we believe about muslims… No surprise…

On purgatory… If we are completely perfected in Christ as the author claims, why do we still sin? If we’re cleansed, why are we still faulty? We are all sinners up to when we die. Do fundamentalists believe we go to heaven and continue to act the same way? Are we unchanged such that we still lie and feel envy and suffer from all our earthly sinfulness? Or is there some change when we get to heaven, so that when we get there we no longer sin? So a change between earthly life and heaven? Hmmm… That doesn’t sound so different than what I believe after all.

Catholics believe fully in God’s forgiveness, but we also believe God is just. The idea that he is all forgiveness and mercy without justice is a false doctrine and why so many people have problems with the idea of hell and many go so far as to reject hell. (There are no limits to his forgiveness, but he is fully just, too) Also, the author calls Purgatory a place, but it’s technically more of a state, of a process. As Paul said, do we not make up in our sufferings what is lacking in Christ? Lacking in Christ… Paul’s own words but very hard to justify from a fundamentalist point of view.

The fundamentalist also dismisses 1 Cor 3:15 rather quickly. The work is burned, but it is the PERSON that is saved only through fire.


#18

So much time typing, and tbh my posts don’t seem like they were necessary.

Catholic beliefs are fully NOT contradicted by scripture. But when quotes are pulled out of context it’s easy to feel like rhey may be. Catholics use the entire Bible, old and new. That is a lot of scripture and a lot of things to tie together, and there is so much commentary from the earliest days to now it could not all be read. That’s part of why we rely on the Church, with 2,000 years of reading the bible and interpreting it thoroughly. However, we should be reading the bible! We should not be discouraged. But if you have questions on something you’ve read that doesn’t seem to fit, then it’s important to seek out a Catholic source for assistance. There will no doubt be plenty of Catholic commentary on it. It can be beneficial to do your reading with a good study bible that has orthodox Catholic notes included.

It’s certainly easier to throw all of that out and pull things out of context, but without in depth knowledge of the full Bible, it’s easy to get lost in contradictory and false teachings.

Plus, in addition to all that, we also have to keep in mind the historical context and that the writers of the New Testament were mostly Jews or very knowledgeable about Judaism! They make many assumptions about what their first century audience knew, and as readers 2000 years later, we may not know some of what they expect us too! Many of these things can go over our heads if we don’t learn the context or think like a first century Jew.


#19

Why are some people so hard of heart to accept the,truth? Great question!

Some people rather not know the truth. They want to continue living their lives any way they please. This is culpable (guilty) ignorance. Some people live in extrrmely remote areas and never heard of Jesus. This of course, is not their fault.

Indeed it baffles me that someone would choose atheism over Jesus. I prefer to believe in Him and live the way He wants me to so I can be with him forever in Heaven. Sure it involves some sacrifice but it sure beats risking my salvation .for some fleeting earthly pleasures that could lead me hell.
If I didnt believe, I would seek the truth because Who else has the words of eternal life but Jesus? John 6:68, Peter said To whom should we go? You give the words of eternal life.
That was in answer to Jesus’s question. Will you leave Me, too?


#20

Your posts were astounding. Wow. I just realized how they take these verses so out of context, and it makes it convincing. Thank you for taking the time to break apart his arguments. I am ready to grow in faith! God bless, thank you so much! Your logic has helped me so much!


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