Gay engagement party


#1

My gay family friend is having an engagement party next month. I am not attending because of course this is wrong. However, my father is thinking about going because he wants to support his best friend who is the father of one of the gay men. How can I lovingly explain to my father that attending such a party is wrong? He is a practicing Catholic too.

Thanks for any advice.

Yours in Christ,
Kim


#2

Tell your father to avoid the party like the plague....attending is putting his immortal soul in danger, if not actually committing a mortal sin....and no true friend-Protestant, Jewish,
or Catholic would put you in such a situation.
What is the sin? Attending such an event is giving tacit approval of a gay union, which is in itself sinful.


#3

I don't know your father or the best approach to take with him.
But some people could find the Catechism of the Catholic Church enlightening when it says of homosexual acts that "under no circumstances can they be approved." (section 2357) You can google easily to the Catechism if you want to know all it says about homosexuality, but it does say this.


#4

[quote="JMJ2013, post:1, topic:278666"]
My gay family friend is having an engagement party next month. I am not attending because of course this is wrong. However, my father is thinking about going because he wants to support his best friend who is the father of one of the gay men. How can I lovingly explain to my father that attending such a party is wrong? He is a practicing Catholic too.

[/quote]

I think it's wonderful and heartfelt for your father to want to support his friend. His friend may need support, and that is what friends do. There is nothing wrong with attending this party. And I assume this couple is getting married in a state where gay marriage is legal. Assuming your father doesn't believe in gay unions, I think he is showing a lot of courage and love by attending the party....and as it's a family friend, I'd suggest you go with him if you care and love this friend, too.


#5

How old are you? No parent wants a morality lecture from their child, especially if that child is s minor. It really isn't your place and there is probably nothing you could say that he would be responsive to.

He's a practicing Catholic, so presumably he's the one who brought you up in the faith. He's probably not going to take your input well.


#6

[quote="heaintheavy, post:4, topic:278666"]
I think it's wonderful and heartfelt for your father to want to support his friend. His friend may need support, and that is what friends do. There is nothing wrong with attending this party. And I assume this couple is getting married in a state where gay marriage is legal. Assuming your father doesn't believe in gay unions, I think he is showing a lot of courage and love by attending the party....and as it's a family friend, I'd suggest you go with him if you care and love this friend, too.

[/quote]

Agreed, about the father at least.

For the child's part, it's their own decision to go or not...


#7

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;

  • by protecting evil-doers.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V


#8

"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction* in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us."

--Pope Benedict XVI from message for Lent 2012

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

also of help:

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9068173&postcount=2

Such of course can be more difficult in terms of ones family as Jesus tells.


#9

The relevant portion of Catechism to look up involves the sin of scandal. Your father, by his attendance, would potentially be broadcasting the message to faithful Catholics that homosexuality is normative and acceptable, and to non-Catholics that Catholicism endorses and tolerates sexual perversion.


#10

[quote="Bookcat, post:7, topic:278666"]
Catechism of the Catholic Church

[/quote]

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;

  • by protecting evil-doers.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V


#11

Also from CCC:

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90


#12

[quote="heaintheavy, post:4, topic:278666"]
I think it's wonderful and heartfelt for your father to want to support his friend. His friend may need support, and that is what friends do. There is nothing wrong with attending this party. And I assume this couple is getting married in a state where gay marriage is legal. Assuming your father doesn't believe in gay unions, I think he is showing a lot of courage and love by attending the party....and as it's a family friend, I'd suggest you go with him if you care and love this friend, too.

[/quote]

Friends also should be concerned about each other's eternal fate. "Loving" and "caring" don't include condoning what my likely doom ones friend.

For the OP, I'd suggest merely stating why you are not attending, and let dad consider your reasoning.


#13

I am in my mid twenties. My father and I have a close relationship. I would in no way be giving him a "morality lecture". I'd simply state my opinion on such a serious matter in a very kind and loving way because I care for his salvation and for the salvation of our friends. They are Catholic as well.

Thank you for your input.

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:5, topic:278666"]
How old are you? No parent wants a morality lecture from their child, especially if that child is s minor. It really isn't your place and there is probably nothing you could say that he would be responsive to.

He's a practicing Catholic, so presumably he's the one who brought you up in the faith. He's probably not going to take your input well.

[/quote]


#14

Excellent, thank you :thumbsup:

[quote="Bookcat, post:8, topic:278666"]
"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction* in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us."

--Pope Benedict XVI from message for Lent 2012

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

also of help:

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9068173&postcount=2

Such of course can be more difficult in terms of ones family as Jesus tells.

[/quote]


#15

[quote="Newbie2, post:12, topic:278666"]
Friends also should be concerned about each other's eternal fate. "Loving" and "caring" don't include condoning what my likely doom ones friend.

For the OP, I'd suggest merely stating why you are not attending, and let dad consider your reasoning.

[/quote]

Sure, nice to be concerned...but that doesn't mean you can't show emotional support.
And showing support by attending doesn't necessarily mean one is agreeing or promoting a lifestyle that they themselves would not choose.
And eternal fate is up to God and between God and the young man who is getting married, not the party attendees. Attending the party won't change this young man's fate, but it will be showing support for the dad, who may need it.
The father not attending smacks more of a harsh judgment or slap in the face, in my mind, instead of kindness and understanding in what might be a very emotional and vulnerable situation for the father.
Then again...the father of the groom might be totally fine that his son is gay and may be very happy he has found someone he loves and wants to marry!


#16

[quote="heaintheavy, post:15, topic:278666"]
Sure, nice to be concerned...but that doesn't mean you can't show emotional support.
And showing support by attending doesn't necessarily mean one is agreeing or promoting a lifestyle that they themselves would not choose.
And eternal fate is up to God and between God and the young man who is getting married, not the party attendees. Attending the party won't change this young man's fate, but it will be showing support for the dad, who may need it.
The father not attending smacks more of a harsh judgment or slap in the face, in my mind, instead of kindness and understanding in what might be a very emotional and vulnerable situation for the father.
Then again...the father of the groom might be totally fine that his son is gay and may be very happy he has found someone he loves and wants to marry!

[/quote]

Sometimes lack of support is also what is needed. "Better the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy"


#17

It isn’t marriage ; and it never will be marriage - :shrug:

If you wish to speak about the young man’s eternal fate being between him and God, we should begin by acknowledging that whatever type of union he decides to enter into with a member of the same sex , it will never be marriage. What the state says, means very little.

It will never be marriage in God’s eyes. :nope:


#18

[quote="NeedImprovement, post:17, topic:278666"]
It isn't marriage ; and it never will be marriage - :shrug:
If you wish to speak about the young man's eternal fate being between him and God, we should begin by acknowledging that whatever type of union he decides to enter into with a member of the same sex , it will never be marriage. What the state says, means very little.
It will never be marriage in God's eyes. :nope:

[/quote]

Ah. Well if it's not considered marriage in God's eyes...then I guess he is not really getting married! And if that's the case, there should be no problem with attending the party!

Of course, some religions do see gay marriage as valid, do they not? If so, and if this man is getting married in a religious ceremony, then the God he and his congregation believe and worship do, indeed, believe this marriage to be real.


#19

If this party is going to be anything like the ones my gay friends throw, then your dad will probably have a blast. It's nice of him to support his friend's son, and it's your dad's business of whether or not he goes.


#20

[quote="heaintheavy, post:18, topic:278666"]
Ah. Well if it's not considered marriage in God's eyes...then I guess he is not really getting married! And if that's the case, there should be no problem with attending the party!

[/quote]

Well, that kind of reasoning might work elsewhere, but this is a Catholic forum, ya know?

For Catholics, marriage is a sacrament -- one of only seven that we recognize as instituted by God. As such, we cannot just blow off what is seen as a mockery of the sacrament.

[quote="heaintheavy, post:18, topic:278666"]
Of course, some religions do see gay marriage as valid, do they not? If so, and if this man is getting married in a religious ceremony, then the God he and his congregation believe and worship do, indeed, believe this marriage to be real.

[/quote]

Again, even if these men are part of a religion that recognizes what they call gay marriage, as Catholics we have to follow what we believe is the Truth as taught by our Church.

CAF is a Catholic website, after all. :shrug:

Gertie


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