Gay Marriage and the Social Issues Surrounding It


#1

Ok so I know I'm going to open a can of worms. So before my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start slashing my throat:p allow me to clarify what I mean.

I have absolutely no issues or problems with people of other beliefs, races, backgrounds or lifestyles. I have an open, loving heart towards anyone.

With that being said; Is it wrong of me not to care about same sex marriage outside of the Church? Meaning, if same sex people who are not Catholic want to get married in a secular place(courthouse, beach, etc) or in another religious institution that allows it. Does that make me less of a Catholic? I'm not asking or even looking for same sex marriage in the Church and have no issue with it not being permitted here. I'm talking about the rest of the world around us.


#2

The problem that I see with SS"M" is that we have already reduced marriage so much, and allowing SS"M" to be legally recognized would be like a nail in the coffin.

At this point, we should be talking about what marriage is really supposed to be, not considering allowing people who have no chance of procreation to contract a legal marriage.

The other problem is that it will open the door to those interested in other forms of marriage to agitate for what they want. Polygamists have already been fighting Utah’s bigamy law, for example. And really, the polygamists have a much better leg to stand on when their ideas are the result of their [erroneous] religious beliefs.


#3

This is all very true, but again outside the Church. What makes a marriage valid? We believe in a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest. But what about Jews? They are obviously not married in the Catholic Church…is there marriage wrong or invalid?


#4

I think you should care, however not for political reasons. I think you should care from a loving spiritual perspective.

Take another topic: it is against church teaching to have sex outside of marriage and with multple partners. It is also against church teaching to photograph or film those events. So now I ask you: should you be concerned over your non-Catholic neighbor that has multiple sex partners and is making pornography all of which are perfectly LEGAL. Well yes, you should.

You should be concerned for the souls of others, even if their sins do not seem to impact you they really do, we are all one body. I know this is not the primary topic brought up on the news, but bottom line as someone's brother or sister in Christ you should be praying for them and be concerned for their sins. Living a life in pornography and multiple partners is sad and destructive. It is not part of God's beautiful design for our lives! The exact same thing can be said for our brothers and sisters that have same-sex-attraction. We are to love them but are not to encourage them in their sins.

If gay marriage were legal there would be far reaching implications for many. Kindergarteners will be regularly reading fairy tales about how a "prince marries another prince." This is already taking place and children are not allowed to "opt out" of the program. Does that bother you in any way? Catholic wedding photographers being sued because they would not take photos for a same-sex wedding. Christian caterers being sued because they didn't want to make dinners for a same-sex wedding.

The actions of our secular brothers and sisters most certainly impact us. I do not doubt in any way that the way this movement is growing we will soon see our churches labeled as places of "hate crime" since they will refuse to marry same-gender people. God help us.


#5

[quote="Womanoffaith10, post:1, topic:294246"]
Ok so I know I'm going to open a can of worms. So before my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start slashing my throat:p allow me to clarify what I mean.

I have absolutely no issues or problems with people of other beliefs, races, backgrounds or lifestyles. I have an open, loving heart towards anyone.

With that being said; Is it wrong of me not to care about same sex marriage outside of the Church? Meaning, if same sex people who are not Catholic want to get married in a secular place(courthouse, beach, etc) or in another religious institution that allows it. Does that make me less of a Catholic? I'm not asking or even looking for same sex marriage in the Church and have no issue with it not being permitted here. I'm talking about the rest of the world around us.

[/quote]

We have a duty to oppose laws that legitimize same-sex unions. I just posted this in the other thred. It's a document all Catholics should read and study.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.


#6

So we have a duty to impress and impose our beliefs on another? And no I could care less if kindergarteners are reading about a prince and a prince.if they have question about it then let the parents handle it and explain it to them. I honestly have no issue with it as I do not feel my beliefs or the beliefs of my church. I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that what goes on in another's personal life is not for to judge.


#7

Of course we don’t judge souls–that’s God’s job. However, we can evaluate the rightness and wrongness of acts according to moral laws.

The more in love with God we are, the more His ways are sweetness and light to us.


#8

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.


#9

[quote="Womanoffaith10, post:1, topic:294246"]
Ok so I know I'm going to open a can of worms. So before my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start slashing my throat:p allow me to clarify what I mean.

I have absolutely no issues or problems with people of other beliefs, races, backgrounds or lifestyles. I have an open, loving heart towards anyone.

With that being said; Is it wrong of me not to care about same sex marriage outside of the Church? Meaning, if same sex people who are not Catholic want to get married in a secular place(courthouse, beach, etc) or in another religious institution that allows it. Does that make me less of a Catholic? I'm not asking or even looking for same sex marriage in the Church and have no issue with it not being permitted here. I'm talking about the rest of the world around us.

[/quote]

I think it's more of, "why is marriage a legal institution in the first place?" It's not so much about personal belief as it is about what warrants something becoming law.

What makes heterosexual marriage so different than SS marriage? ... Children.

Protecting the interests of children is the primary reason that government regulates and licenses marriage in the first instance. After all, government does not license or regulate any other form of intimate relationship – not friendship, or dating, or cohabitation. People are free, under the law, to live as they choose, cohabitate with whomever they choose and engage in sexually intimate relationships with whomever they choose – all without any governmental recognition or regulation.

But marriage is a special relationship reserved exclusively for heterosexual unions because only the intimate relationship between men and women has the ability to produce children as a result of that sexual union.

Marriage serves a vital and universal societal purpose – to channel biological drive and sexual passion that might otherwise become socially destructive into enduring family units that have the best opportunity to ensure the care and education of any children produced by that biological drive and sexual passion.

...Marriage (and only marriage) unites the three core dimensions of parenthood – biological, social and legal – into one pro-child form: the married couple.

...Fundamentally, same-sex marriage advocates propose to shift the marriage paradigm away from what definition of marriage is best for society – especially for children – and squarely onto the desires of the individual adults who seek to marry. Under a genderless definition of marriage, the interests of children – and therefore society’s intrinsic interest in marriage – is eliminated entirely. Only the wishes of the two adults in question matter.


#10

It’s not a religious issue; it’s a social issue.

We impose our views on others all the time: we tell people who want to murder that that is wrong and we will put them in jail for doing it. Same with other crimes.

The fact is that SS"M" will cause a lot of problems in society because it is redefining marriage. The family is the foundation of society and its future. Marriage is the starting of a family.

If people who are inherently unable to procreate are permitted to “marry” legally, then what does our legal system say about marriage? That it is nothing more than going steady with a big party.

Why should people who had a big party and got a piece of paper to show they are serious about going steady get a tax break? Get a family discount on their health insurance? Have special legal protections (very few of which are left)?

All these have been granted to people who were bearing children and raising them. That made sense. If all they are doing is having sex, then what’s the point?


#11

My mother is a lesbian, and she has instilled more moral values than my heterosexual father has. My father left me when I was young and has told me that he doesn’t care about me. My mother taught me to further my education, to not have premarital sex, and to follow Gods law. I feel that saying that she should not raise me because she is a lesbian is outrageous. I love my mother and always will, and it hurts that she doesn’t have the human right to marry the person she loves.


#12

I think you hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:


#13

[quote="Womanoffaith10, post:6, topic:294246"]
So we have a duty to impress and impose our beliefs on another? And no I could care less if kindergarteners are reading about a prince and a prince.if they have question about it then let the parents handle it and explain it to them. I honestly have no issue with it as I do not feel my beliefs or the beliefs of my church. I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that what goes on in another's personal life is not for to judge.

[/quote]

We live in a society that tells us "not to force our beliefs on other people". To answer simply, this attitude is not reconciliable with a sound Catholic faith.

The Catholic church does not tolerate luke-warmness. A person either accepts the Church's infallible teachings on contraception, gay marriage, abortion, pre-marital sex, etc... completely or that person is no longer worthy of recieving holy communion and thereby considering oneself a practicing Catholic.

Now, if the Church teaches that gay marriage is wrong in every single, possible situation how could somebody possibly accept this teaching but then go on and say that it isn't necessarly wrong if somebody else is doing it? To make matters worse, a Catholic who knows the sinfulness of gay marriage but then permits others live this lifestyle without at least trying to oppose it is essentially saying that "I am going to allow a soul to possibly fall into hell and suffer eternally just because I'm too afraid of being politically incorrect". At the end of the day there's no place in heaven for cowards, so one would be well-advised to treat their fear of confronting evil as a personal inequity to be eliminated.

Allowing a person to live in a state of mortal sin without at least trying to help him/her is not being "open minded", it's wicked. For example, if you saw a blind person walking off the side of a cliff would you not at least try to reach out and grab that person?


#14

I really struggle with this. But ultimately God is more important to me than my own sense of justice.

As an American that believes in equality and as a human that understands that people with same sex attraction do love their partners very much, it is diffiuclt for me to say that same sex partners should not be allowed to marry.

As a Catholic Christian who believes in the word of God, who struggles daily with my own sins, I know that God loves all of us, but does not accept all that we do and expects us to draw on his love for support to change that which separates us from him. I wouldn’t wish the cross that is given to those with Same Sex attraction on anybody.

But if we give up on God and say that the human in us is more important than God, that we as humans know better than what God’s plan for us is…aren’t we really fooling ourselves.

Before becoming Catholic I was a stauch supporter of the Death Penalty and securing our borders. I have had to modify my beliefs on those and I am still working on it. I have also modified my beliefs on same sex marriage and contraception, which I tended to support. I either believe that God is the truth or this whole thing is a farce.


#15

How does one respond to an argument that goes something like this:

“I think if two men want to shack-up with each other it is kinda gross and not natural, but how is that my business (other than in the spiritual way described above)? It doesn’t hurt me and the government shouldn’t be involved with marriage at all. This way we never have to hear about people prattling on about polygamy or “gay” marriage etc. After all, you don’t need to be married to get any kind of benefits any more really. This way, the only “marriages” will be performed by religious groups. This also prevents cries of “discrimination”, as a Jewish temple won’t give a Bar Mitzvah to a Moslem. Why, then, should a Catholic church give a marriage to two men, using this logic?”


#16

[quote="zoes96, post:11, topic:294246"]
My mother is a lesbian, and she has instilled more moral values than my heterosexual father has. My father left me when I was young and has told me that he doesn't care about me. My mother taught me to further my education, to not have premarital sex, and to follow Gods law. I feel that saying that she should not raise me because she is a lesbian is outrageous. I love my mother and always will, and it hurts that she doesn't have the human right to marry the person she loves.

[/quote]

The problem with your bringing in your own personal situation is that you are bypassing the idea of what is going on and saying that because you love your mother and this would make her happy, it should happen.

Of course you love your mother. And your father, from your description, is a jerk. And it is great that your mother did such a good job in raising you--she sounds like a wonderful and strong woman.

However, not all practicing homosexuals who want to get "married" are as nice, or wonderful, or strong as your mother. Some of them are creeps.

Should we decide this issue based on the creeps? Should we say, some practicing homosexuals who want to "marry" are creeps so we shouldn't do it?

So, would it be right to decide this issue based on the fact that some practicing homosexuals are really wonderful people?

I don't think so. I think we need to decide this issue based on a thoughtful consideration of the social issues involved.


#17

[quote="Womanoffaith10, post:1, topic:294246"]
Ok so I know I'm going to open a can of worms. So before my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start slashing my throat:p allow me to clarify what I mean.

I have absolutely no issues or problems with people of other beliefs, races, backgrounds or lifestyles. I have an open, loving heart towards anyone.

With that being said; Is it wrong of me not to care about same sex marriage outside of the Church? Meaning, if same sex people who are not Catholic want to get married in a secular place(courthouse, beach, etc) or in another religious institution that allows it. Does that make me less of a Catholic? I'm not asking or even looking for same sex marriage in the Church and have no issue with it not being permitted here. I'm talking about the rest of the world around us.

[/quote]

This is not a religious issue. It is an issue of the natural moral law. No one wants to make all people attend a Catholic mass each Sunday. What we must do is defend the moral law which applies to all people whether they are Catholic or not.


#18

The very last thing I ever want to be is a hypocrite. I'm just very uncomfortable telling someone else who does believe the same as I do how to live their life. I know its sinful and I know its wrong, but most of what goes on is. I know I'm just as guilty of commitibg offenses again God. Of course the difference is I ask for forgiveness and do my best to turn. Not everyone feels that way. Would be nice if they did as I'm sure the world would be a better place, but you can't lead a horse to water then make it drink. You can't force feed beliefs on others who have no interest.


#19

She told you to follow God’s law, but by example she is not even trying to?


#20

You would not be a hypocrite for upholding what is morally correct. What would be a grave mistake would be to participate in another’s sin by telling them them should act as they desire.


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