gay marriage


#1

I got in a heated discussion with family members. I said I would never attend a gay wedding, that it would be wrong. I was told that I was a HYPOCRITE AND THAT JESUS ATE AND DRANK WITH SINNERS.Not being a great debater ( or apologist) I insisted that Jesus did eat and drink with sinners , but didn’t stand by and watch them sinning, etc. etc.and that He also told sinners to go and sin no more. What should I have said? Am I correct to say it would be sinful to go? Thanks, Connieo :confused:


#2

I think you’re right to say that Jesus never condoned sin and certainly didn’t just TELL people not to sin any more, he went and overturned the moneylenders tables in the temple! I don’t think you’re being a hypocrite, after all you wouldn’t expect people to condone your behaviour if you committed adultery.

As to whether to attend a gay wedding … well, I have a number of gay friends, and I can’t conceive of attending a religious-type wedding ceremony for them, but I might think about it if it was purely a civil ceremony. But then I’ve not had to cross that bridge so far.


#3

[quote=connieo]I got in a heated discussion with family members. I said I would never attend a gay wedding, that it would be wrong. I was told that I was a HYPOCRITE AND THAT JESUS ATE AND DRANK WITH SINNERS.Not being a great debater ( or apologist) I insisted that Jesus did eat and drink with sinners , but didn’t stand by and watch them sinning, etc. etc.and that He also told sinners to go and sin no more. What should I have said? Am I correct to say it would be sinful to go? Thanks, Connieo :confused:
[/quote]

I think in your zeal to defend the Church’s teaching, you probably got ahead of yourself when saying “never.” It isn’t intrinsically evil to attend a gay wedding. It is a matter of prudence (CC-1806) for you to discern whether it is sinful in the particular situation. I think you when faced w/ a specifics situation whether showing your love for this person(s) is better served by attending or not attending. Only you will know in your heart what is prudent.

We all see our loved ones sinning all the time. Sometimes the proper course of action is to admonish them, othertimes we should softly point out their error, and othertimes we need to just love them and pray they will see the error of their ways.


#4

I would have a very difficult time attending a gay marriage. In fact, I am pretty sure, I would not go. Jesus said, go and sin no more…and by celebrating a union that is intrinsically against natural law, that to me would not go down well at all. No, I don’t think I would ever go. I would be pleasant to the person, but admittedly tell them I would not go.


#5

They might have interpreted your adamant response as one of intolerance and hate which, as we know, our lord resented. Perhaps it would have helped just to leave it at, “I wouldn’t feel comfortable going to a gay wedding.” Because they can’t argue with how you’d feel.


#6

[quote=connieo]I got in a heated discussion with family members. I said I would never attend a gay wedding, that it would be wrong. I was told that I was a HYPOCRITE AND THAT JESUS ATE AND DRANK WITH SINNERS.Not being a great debater ( or apologist) I insisted that Jesus did eat and drink with sinners , but didn’t stand by and watch them sinning, etc. etc.and that He also told sinners to go and sin no more. What should I have said? Am I correct to say it would be sinful to go? Thanks, Connieo :confused:
[/quote]

challenge your debaters to give one instance in the Gospel where Jesus condoned the sin, did not forgive the sinner and tell them to go and sin no more. find one instance where he approved and glorified their sinful actions. You will find plenty of places where he expressed his love of the sinner, and did so by forgiving the sin and counselling to sin no more. that is real love. a lie can never be loving.

If I knew your well was poisoned, even though you insisted on drinking the water because it was sweet tasting, and you insisted it had health benefits, yet I allowed you to drink the water, would I be loving?


#7

[quote=StratusRose]They might have interpreted your adamant response as one of intolerance and hate which, as we know, our lord resented. Perhaps it would have helped just to leave it at, “I wouldn’t feel comfortable going to a gay wedding.” Because they can’t argue with how you’d feel.
[/quote]

In all fairness to the OP, it was a mutually heated exchange. Besides, one can only so much soft step around the issue in fear of being mislabelled as being "intolerant’ or “hateful” – this is a often used manipulation tactic by proponents of the “gay” agenda.


#8

I think you said the right thing. My family and I have been invited several times to attend parties in honor of my cousin and his male “partner.” We did not attend, not because we are trying to snub them, but because we are not willing to support or celebrate their lifestyle.


#9

[quote=connieo]I got in a heated discussion with family members. I said I would never attend a gay wedding, that it would be wrong. I was told that I was a HYPOCRITE AND THAT JESUS ATE AND DRANK WITH SINNERS.Not being a great debater ( or apologist) I insisted that Jesus did eat and drink with sinners , but didn’t stand by and watch them sinning, etc. etc.and that He also told sinners to go and sin no more. What should I have said? Am I correct to say it would be sinful to go? Thanks, Connieo :confused:
[/quote]

I think you handled yourself well, if this is what you said to them.
I also think they were probably testing you to see how committed to your faith you are - or were secretly trying to draw you away from it, and openly redicule it.
I know none of my family would even attempt to ask me to a gay function. ( I can’t use the ‘m’ word).


#10

[quote=connieo]I got in a heated discussion with family members. I said I would never attend a gay wedding, that it would be wrong. I was told that I was a HYPOCRITE AND THAT JESUS ATE AND DRANK WITH SINNERS.Not being a great debater ( or apologist) I insisted that Jesus did eat and drink with sinners , but didn’t stand by and watch them sinning, etc. etc.and that He also told sinners to go and sin no more. What should I have said? Am I correct to say it would be sinful to go? Thanks, Connieo :confused:
[/quote]

First off you or they are not Jesus and they should understand that Jesus was perfect and any association He had with humans was associating with sinners.

True Catholic charity demands fraternal correction. By attending you may be giving implicit approval of this.

You are not a hypocrite for not wanting to associate with evil.


#11

[quote=Orionthehunter]I It is a matter of prudence (CC-1806) f
[/quote]

and scandal.


#12

[quote=Orionthehunter]I think in your zeal to defend the Church’s teaching, you probably got ahead of yourself when saying “never.”

It isn’t intrinsically evil to attend a gay wedding. It is a matter of prudence (CC-1806) for you to discern whether it is sinful in the particular situation. I think you when faced w/ a specifics situation whether showing your love for this person(s) is better served by attending or not attending. Only you will know in your heart what is prudent.
As a matter of prudence, I cannot see how as a faithful Catholic one attending a “gay” wedding ceremony could ever be a prudent choice of action. I believe that this would seriously compromise “the good to achieve and the evil to avoid”.

1806Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.” “Keep sane and sober for your prayers.” Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle. …The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.”

We all see our loved ones sinning all the time. Sometimes the proper course of action is to admonish them, othertimes we should softly point out their error, and othertimes we need to just love them and pray they will see the error of their ways.

But there is a contextual time and place to prudently “just love them”.
[/quote]


#13

We have the ability to put pressure on evil by rejecting it outright. The more people who attend these kinds of events in the name of tolerance the more evil presses in on us. This is something we have to continue to do is to fight for right. It does have a positive effect on society.


#14

#15

Well, gay marrige has to be LEGAL in the first place, so for now, I’m safe from you situation.

Burn the vile institution that condones their abominable behavior! BURN IN CLEANSIG FIRE!!!

Pyromaniacs unite!

Heh heh, in grassfire season, there was a ban on all fires and arson. But the ban was lifted, so we arsonist are gonna have a real fun time.


#16

[quote=Orionthehunter]I think in your zeal to defend the Church’s teaching, you probably got ahead of yourself when saying “never.” It isn’t intrinsically evil to attend a gay wedding. It is a matter of prudence (CC-1806) for you to discern whether it is sinful in the particular situation. I think you when faced w/ a specifics situation whether showing your love for this person(s) is better served by attending or not attending. Only you will know in your heart what is prudent.
[/quote]

We all see our loved ones sinning all the time. Sometimes the proper course of action is to admonish them, othertimes we should softly point out their error, and othertimes we need to just love them and pray they will see the error of their ways.

My friend I am afraid you have fallen into the mire of relativism. The end of 1806

[quote=Catechism of the Catholic Church]With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.
[/quote]

Clearly we are to avoid evil and if we look at what the Catechism defines as Marriage. We knowing that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a true and sure norm, that defining truth. We will see in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “gay marriage” is a lie. A lie equals the work of the devil, king of lies, the purveyor of evil we can easily see that “gay marriage” is evil. Therefore if we attend a “gay marriage” ceremony we are supporting evil.

It is easy to see in ccc 2357-59 that homosexuality not to be celebrated and the homosexual act is disordered. By attending a “gay marriage” we are giving our approval to the act of marital union being acted out in a gravely disordered fashion.

I analogies it like we are attending an abortion as the abortionist guest.

Reference

[quote=CCC, 2202] A man and a woman united in marriage, together with their children, form a family. This institution is prior to any recognition by public authority, which has an obligation to recognize it. It should be considered the normal reference point by which the different forms of family relationship are to be evaluated.
[/quote]

[quote=CCC, 2210] The importance of the family for the life and well-being of society13
[/quote]

entails a particular responsibility for society to support and strengthen marriage and the family. Civil authority should consider it a grave duty "to acknowledge the true nature of marriage and the family, to protect and foster them, to safeguard public morality, and promote domestic prosperity."14

[quote=CCC, 2357] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141
[/quote]

tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

[quote=CCC, 2358] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
[/quote]

[quote=CCC, 2359] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection
[/quote]


#17

Part 2:

I just thought of another situation where the easy answer wasn’t the right answer. I was at a golf tourney. Over the years, a group of us from different towns had become friends (mostly sitting in the bar drinking beer and reliving every shot on every hole- golfers will understand the setting :smiley: ). Some years, some of them would later decide to go to the strip club. This is when I’d decide to just go to my room. One of the guys in the group was like me a father of many girls. This one time, I felt moved to go along with them (you should have seen the look of shock). We got a table, ordered our drinks, I avoided taking any pleasure from the environment, but sat there w/o expressing any outward disgust or disapproval. I acted as if we were still in the previous pub. But near the end of the evening, I leaned over to the guy who had the daughters and said to him “You know, every one of these girls is someone’s daughter.” The look on his face was priceless.

Now i’m sure alot of people might think it was wrong for me to go or will think that I could have said it before they went to the same effect. However, I had no pre-concieved “plan” when I went. I just listened to my heart. I didn’t plan to say the words until they came out. The end of the story: This friend later told me that he never gone back to a strip club, canceled his Playboy subscription, and has never watched another adult movie in his hotel room.

The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. It is prudence that allows us to make the right decision, especially when it is outside the box. Sometimes it just takes a little faith to listen.


#18

From Roy McKenzie: My friend I am afraid you have fallen into the mire of relativism. The end of 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catechism of the Catholic Church
With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.

Clearly we are to avoid evil and if we look at what the Catechism defines as Marriage. We knowing that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a true and sure norm, that defining truth. We will see in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “gay marriage” is a lie. A lie equals the work of the devil, king of lies, the purveyor of evil we can easily see that “gay marriage” is evil. Therefore if we attend a “gay marriage” ceremony we are supporting evil.

It is easy to see in ccc 2357-59 that homosexuality not to be celebrated and the homosexual act is disordered. By attending a “gay marriage” we are giving our approval to the act of marital union being acted out in a gravely disordered fashion.

I analogies it like we are attending an abortion as the abortionist guest.

I appreciate your concern and comments that not going to such a ceremony may be correct and potentially scandalous. I also agree that we are to avoid committing evil acts or thoughts. It doesn’t mean that we don’t minister and witness in the presence of sin.

For this reason, I disagree that attending a gay wedding necessarily means one has succumbed to relativism or that your abortion is applicable in all situations (but I concede it is approproate in some situations and probably most).

Relativism by definition is the thesis that all points of view are equally valid. I don’t believe that a gay wedding is equal to a sacramental marriage and I have the intellectual and moral understanding to distinguish them.

Additionally, attendence at such an event isn’t necessarily scandal. Was it scandal when a Priest (relative of the deceased) attended a private memorial service where the deceased was an atheist/agnostic and the burial rite was a Masonic rite (If you havent’ ever attended one, it will turn your stomach as it is filled w/ pagan symbolism)? Only a simpleton would think that the Priest was there to endorse the ceremony or the beliefs of the deceased. Everyone knew he and the other Christians were there to pay their respects and all us Catholics even prayed for the deceased. Some of us laughed afterwards that the deceased would have chasticed us had he been physically with us.

I don’t think I know a single person closely who is gay. And because of that, I’m not a good person to know how I’d react if I were to be invited to such a ceremony. This being said that I probably would decline the invitation for reasons articulated in this thread and probably others.

However, if faced with the situation, I believe it may be prudent to act differently. I in know way think it ok to condone this wrong behaviour. At the same time, attending doesn’t necessarily imply that one is condoning it. Just as a Priest or medical professional can minister or deliver health care to a homosexual, one can be a friend to a homosexual.

I have a friend who is a confirmed Catholic, was married before, and remarried a non-Catholic and isn’t practicing his faith. He knows full well my views on his situation. We talked about it when he and his new wife were dating, we’ve talked about it since. But I had no qualms about attending their Lutheran marriage ceremony. He is my friend. I want him to get to heaven. And I knew that if I were to avoid his wedding, I’d lose the friendship and the opportunity to ever “minister” to him about how he would be served to get an annulment and come home to the Church. My attendence didn’t imply that I supported the marriage. My attendence was a outward sign that I love him just as the Priest and I said when we attended the funeral I mentioned above.

If a friend or relative of a gay person were faced with similar circumstances and reached the same conclusion, I’d respect his prudence (regardless of which decision he made) especially if I knew him to be a man of prayer. I really think we need to acknowledge that certain people will reach different conclusions in various circumstances and that the answer is not always right. This is why we are given the gift and grace of Prudence.

See the next post for part 2.


#19

[quote=Orionthehunter]P We got a table, ordered our drinks, I avoided taking any pleasure from the environment, but sat there w/o expressing any outward disgust or disapproval. I acted as if we were still in the previous pub. But near the end of the evening, I leaned over to the guy who had the daughters and said to him “You know, every one of these girls is someone’s daughter.” The look on his face was priceless.

Now i’m sure alot of people might think it was wrong for me to go or will think that I could have said it before they went to the same effect.
[/quote]

Yes, many would think the same effect could have happend without exposing yourself to a near occasion of sin and perhaps causing scandal. Perhaps another person saw you go in there and thought if you went there it was morally reasonable for him to attend as well?

Claiming recourse to thinking “outside the box” does not make such actions prudent.


#20

You may, but others may not. That is one reason why attending is wrong in most every case.

Additionally, attendence at such an event isn’t necessarily scandal.

It may or may not be a scandal depending on several factors, but would the two people being “married” assume you were there to support such an immoral act or to offer correction and be a sign of contradiction to the culture?

Was it scandal when a Priest (relative of the deceased) attended a private memorial service where the deceased was an atheist/agnostic and the burial rite was a Masonic rite (If you havent’ ever attended one, it will turn your stomach as it is filled w/ pagan symbolism)?

Perhaps. Do such funeral rites imply the same thing publicly as a “gay” marriage? A funeral service is not equivalent to a fake marriage. If the same priest attended the relative’s “gay” wedding would that be reasonable?

Only a simpleton would think that the Priest was there to endorse the ceremony or the beliefs of the deceased.

So, only a simpleton would assume a priest going to a “gay” wedding endorsed the ceremony?

However, if faced with the situation, I believe it may be prudent to act differently. I in know way think it ok to condone this wrong behaviour. At the same time, attending doesn’t necessarily imply that one is condoning it.

What would it mean? You like the pastries?

Just as a Priest or medical professional can minister or deliver health care to a homosexual, one can be a friend to a homosexual.

That has nothing to do with validating an immoral act.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.