Gay Marriage


#1

Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK?


#2

catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp gives a much more eloquent response than I can.

I would also direct your attention to #2357 in the Catechism (usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm):

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.


#3

[quote=Ezzie]Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK?
[/quote]

Yes.


#4

In short, yes, I believe it is.

We may not always fully understand the Church’s teaching on something, and that in itself is OK, as long as we still obey the teaching.

So, if you don’t understand why it’s wrong, that’s one thing. But to openly disagree with a church teaching is another.


#5

Objectively, holding any belief that is contrary to Church teaching would be considered a sin. Whether or not personal guilt accompanies that sin is another matter. If a person believes gay “marriage” is OK, why do they believe it? Is it through a lack of understanding of the issue, or is it deliberate opposition?


#6

Oh, I don’t know. Our marriage was pretty gay at the start. Then we had kids :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, you were talking about homosexual marriage. :eek:

DaveBj


#7

Good possibility for a Master’s thesis in sociology or history:
The Gay Ninety’s (1890’s) vs The Gay Ninety’s (1990’s and beyond.)


#8

Let’s try to understand why the Church teaches what it does about homosexual marriage. Let’s start at the beginning:

God is a Trinity. 3 Persons and one Nature. I’ll skip the philosophical discussion of Nature and Persons in the Trinity unless someone asks for details. For the purposes of this thread it is more important to understand the relations of the 3 Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When one delves into the theology and philosophy we know that it is the LOVE of the Father for the Son, and the LOVE of the Son for the Father. Their love for each other is so strong it has to be given a name, that name is the HOLY SPIRIT. The Father and Son SPIRATE the HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore it is the eternal mutual love that each person of the Trinity has that makes up the interior life of God; a life of infinite, eternal and constant love. But note, that LOVE is LIFE-GIVING.

Does it sound like any other relationship you know of? Of course it does - the love of husband and wife. The love of husband and wife is meant to model (made in the image of) God’s own life. The love of the husband and wife is so strong that 9 months later it also has to be given a name! So we see the love of husband, wife and the children are meant to refelct God’s own existence and interior life of love. It is ordained by God.

Homosexual unions CANNOT model (be in the image of) God’s life - they ARE NOT life giving. And so homosexual sex and marriage are not part of God’s plan for mankind since all of creation is meant to give God glory, which we do by imitating His life, something homosexual marriage and homosexual sex are incapable of.

Believing something that is contrary to God’s plan is at least gravely close to sin (depending on how well informed the conscience is) if not truly sin.

Hope that helps,
Greg


#9

Thanks, Greg, that was a very apt analogy. The love between the Father and Son is so perfect that it generates a third Person, the Holy Spirit.

The love of a husband and wife can mirror that–a love so perfect that in nine months you can give it a name.

(This doesn’t mean that all marriages are necessarily fecund; it does mean that they mirror the full giving of self in which resides the potential for the generation of new persons.)


#10

Yes of course Jim, you’re right. Thanks for pointing that out. Just because a marriage hasn’t produced children doesn’t mean it doesn’t model God’s interior life. The couples love and openness to the possibility of life by participating in God’s creative act (through love) models God’s life.

Thanks again
G


#11

[quote=Ezzie]Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK?
[/quote]

Another thing to remember when discussing this topic is that the Church teaching is very clear, Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There can not be a so called “gay marriage” or “homosexual marriage” The is like trying to convince me that 2+2=5! I don’t really care how many shells you have it ain’t going to add up.


#12

To answer your initial question, I believe Scripture and tradition teach that it is a grave sin indeed.


#13

catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp gives a much more eloquent response than I can.

I would also direct your attention to #2357 in the Catechism (usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm):

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.


#14

[quote=Ezzie]Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK?
[/quote]

Is it a sin to mind one’s own business about other people’s relationships and leave those relationships to them and God?


#15

[quote=Penny Plain]Is it a sin to mind one’s own business about other people’s relationships and leave those relationships to them and God?
[/quote]

Not sure what you are asking here. Part of the problem is that so-called gay couples are not content to leave their relationships to themselves and God. Nothing will do for them short of every straight person (through legal coercion if necessary, witness Sweden and Canada) publically giving full moral approval of it–which of course we can’t do.

Scott


#16

[quote=Penny Plain]Is it a sin to mind one’s own business about other people’s relationships and leave those relationships to them and God?
[/quote]

No.

Because as St. Paul says we are to admonish the sinner in hopes that they turn from their ways.


#17

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]No.

Because as St. Paul says we are to admonish the sinner in hopes that they turn from their ways.
[/quote]

You confused me. No, it’s not a sin to mind my own business? Or no, I shouldn’t let sinners pass unadmonished?

If St. Paul says I should be admonishing people, I suppose I need to get started. Whom, exactly, should I be admonishing? All sinners? All Catholic sinners? Motorcycle gangs? Priests? My boss? My husband?

Should I only admonish people who commit certain types of sins? If so, what types of sin?


#18

I have trouble seeing the evil of this sin too. I struggle with it, often read and attempt to understand the teachings of the church, yet my conscience battles me.

The best I can seem to do is to see the evil of the sin indirectly. I try to justify it to my conscience this way.

Allow me to explain: I can understand how casual sex, sex before marriage and adultry are not perfect manifistations of exhibiting love between two people. Sex before marriage often leads to people getting hurt because of the lack of commitment thereof.
What I cannot see is how homosexuality is more grave a sin then the sins mentioned above. That is where my understanding breaks down. (please don’t reply with with bible verses, I know how scripture refers to this sin)

When I see homosexuals (tv, newspaper, activivsts etc) trying to share thier love for a member of the same sex, the thought that comes to mind is: I must not accept this because the Church say so (which is enough). However I cannot say I inherently see the evil (beyond what is mentioned above).
I know the vast majority of the people who frequent these forums see it differently. It would be easier for me if I did too. But I am fooling myself if I said I understand. :frowning:


#19

[quote=JimG]Good possibility for a Master’s thesis in sociology or history:
The Gay Ninety’s (1890’s) vs The Gay Ninety’s (1990’s and beyond.)
[/quote]

Ha! I like that!

  • JP

#20

[quote=gsaccone]Let’s try to understand why the Church teaches what it does about homosexual marriage. Let’s start at the beginning:

God is a Trinity. 3 Persons and one Nature. I’ll skip the philosophical discussion of Nature and Persons in the Trinity unless someone asks for details. For the purposes of this thread it is more important to understand the relations of the 3 Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When one delves into the theology and philosophy we know that it is the LOVE of the Father for the Son, and the LOVE of the Son for the Father. Their love for each other is so strong it has to be given a name, that name is the HOLY SPIRIT. The Father and Son SPIRATE the HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore it is the eternal mutual love that each person of the Trinity has that makes up the interior life of God; a life of infinite, eternal and constant love. But note, that LOVE is LIFE-GIVING.

Does it sound like any other relationship you know of? Of course it does - the love of husband and wife. The love of husband and wife is meant to model (made in the image of) God’s own life. The love of the husband and wife is so strong that 9 months later it also has to be given a name! So we see the love of husband, wife and the children are meant to refelct God’s own existence and interior life of love. It is ordained by God.

Homosexual unions CANNOT model (be in the image of) God’s life - they ARE NOT life giving. And so homosexual sex and marriage are not part of God’s plan for mankind since all of creation is meant to give God glory, which we do by imitating His life, something homosexual marriage and homosexual sex are incapable of.

Believing something that is contrary to God’s plan is at least gravely close to sin (depending on how well informed the conscience is) if not truly sin.

Hope that helps,
Greg
[/quote]

Greg,

You did a wonderful job of expressing yourself here. Where I have a problem is in the all-or-nothing perpective of this argument. Meaning, yes, Gods love for His Son and vise-versa essentially giving life to the Holy Spirit is purely beautiful. I’ve never heard it expressed that way. The parallel that can be drawn between a husband and wife further illustrates the beauty. BUT, why MUST it be this way for all? It’s a differing sort-of relationship. I love my children but our love will not produce life. I love my friends but our love will not produce life. Why is it that a homosexual cannot love a homosexual and not produce life?

I’m inquiring, please understand.


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