Gen 3:16, Rev 12:2 what is the true catholic position?


#1

Reply to Objection 1: In the state of innocence child-bearing would have been painless: for Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiv, 26): “Just as, in giving birth, the mother would then be relieved not by groans of pain, but by the instigations of maturity, so in bearing and conceiving the union of both sexes would be one not of lustful desire but of deliberate action” *Cf. FP, Question [98], Article [2]].

catholicprimer.org/summa/SS/SS164.html

If someone can trace down the quote by Augustine, thank you.

1,000,000,000 times 0 is 0.

whereas, 1,000 times 1 is 1,000.

So, dropping something the size of a bowling ball through the opening of a golf ball is painless?

We all have seen, catholic apologetists claim that the woman in Rev 12 is Mary, and that the pain of childbirth was “greatly mulitiplied” as the result of the fall to get out of verse two.

Revelation 12:2

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Genesis 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus)

  1. **By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word,**14 whose brightness is above the sun. And by the “moon under her feet” he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, “upon her head a crown of twelve stars,” refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, “she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered,” mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart14 the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. “And she brought forth,” he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; "by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, “her child was caught up unto God and to His throne,” signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool."14 “And the dragon,” he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."14 That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church,14 which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: "And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings."14

newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm

A early commentary on Revelation,

  1. “And there was seen a great sign in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried out travailing, and bearing torments that she might bring forth.”] The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles, which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people. Moreover, being clothed with the sun intimates the hope of resurrection and the glory of the promise. And the moon intimates the fall of the bodies of the saints under the obligation of death, which never can fail. For even as life is diminished, so also it is increased. Nor is the hope of those that sleep extinguished absolutely, as some think, but they have in their darkness a light such as the moon. And the crown of twelve stars signifies the choir of fathers, according to the fleshly birth, of whom Christ was to take flesh.

newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm


#2

Personally I think the “multiply” argument is the same as the “until” argument. :shrug:

Also sounds like something that could mean different things in different translations. I feel its not beneficial to get hung up on the definition of one word in English to determine the teaching of a phrase. That is why we as Catholics h ave the magisterium of the Church to understand the bible.

Whats more just because it might have been uncomfortable doesn’t mean it was painful. I know women who have had natural childbirth that wasn’t much more than uncomfortable.


#3

Is not saying one is uncomfortable, just another way of expressing pain?

seriously, what authoritive sources says that Rev 12 is about Mary? or about Isreal? or about the Church?

It is exactly authoritive sources, what you call part of the magisterium that I am asking for.

Are there any early church fathers that teach that Mary is the woman in Rev 12? quotes with links to that church father please.


#4

Any authoritve sources guys? or gals?


#5

Go here. forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2380183#post2380183


#6

I thought that the reasons our sorrow/pain in childbearing multiplied at the Fall were as follows:

  1. Because we are now in a broken world, it is no longer safe for children to be born in a less-developed state, as they were meant to be. So, the child is larger, since he/she must develop more before birth.
  2. Because of childhood death, more children must be born.
  3. Because of childhood death, mothers must grieve for their children.
  4. The existence of sin means children will often hate their parents and live heartbreaking lifestyles. This hurts their mothers.
  5. The relative poverty and hardship of the post-Fall world and the relatively weak human body mean that pregnancy and childbirth are far more painful than they would be for a maximally healthy woman.
    But there might have been less pain than normal, physically, when Mary bore Jesus, because she was in intimate contact with the Healer Himself, and he might have been healing her childbirth wounds before they could occur. But her emotional suffering would be deeper, as she would know she was bearing a child who would suffer so much and die so young.
    Does anyone think this makes sense?

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