Gen 3:3-4 Who lied?


#1

From the DR

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat: and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.

4 And the serpent said to the woman: *No, you shall not die the death.

A JW asked me how the Catholic Church understands the lie that was told to Eve.
Who lied Satan or God?

If there is a part of us that lives after death than God lied?

God said that Eve would die. Body and soul?

Satan told Eve that she would not die but God told her she would die.
.

I think what my friend is asking is that God said that Eve would die in her entirety and not separating her body from her immortal soul.

Did God mean that Adam and Eve would die body and soul?

In the NT we are promised either eternal life or eternal death. My JW friend does not believe in a spiritual soul that meets Jesus/God at the particular judgement at our death.

At this point in time did God make provisions for their immortal soul?

Did Adam and Eve have and immortal soul?

Thanks


#2

Adam and Eve had immortal souls yes. However you must remember that at that point creation was in a state of total perfection. When Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit they chose the opposite of God, life and love, and chose death. Thus sin and its wages death entered the world.


#3

One time Luke Skywalker, after he found out Darth Vader was his father, was talking to the spirit of Obi Wan. He was confused because Obi Wan had told him his father had died by the hand of Darth Vader.

Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view...

We must look at this from the point of view of God. I think they are referring to a spiritual death in this instance, kind of like the example I gave. Or maybe even the death of innocence. The Bible tells us "the wages of sin is death."

The devil distorts things, and is the father of lies. He distorted the word of God to mean a physical death, and told Eve "nah..you won't die."


#4

I was always under the impression that if they hadn’t eaten the fruit, they would have lived physically forever in the Garden. Instead, they did physically die. Death isn’t natural. Our souls aren’t supposed to be separated from our bodies. The death wasn’t instantaneous, so that’s how Satan tricked them, since they didn’t immediately fall over dead.

In Christ,
Ellen


#5

God did not lie he told them they would surely die, and they both became mortal on that day and they both died as we will all die on our dying day. Your friend left out the other part of the lie that satan told them, that they would also become Gods by eating of the fruit of the tree. This same lie is being propagated to this day and sometimes in the form of religion. What if you asked this JW friend the following; if Christ did not take equality with God as something to be grasped at, how can we think that inequality with God is something that can be grasped at?


#6

.

What if you asked this JW friend the following; if Christ did not take equality with God as something to be grasped at, how can we think that inequality with God is something that can be grasped at?

First--The JW's don't believe that Jesus is God.
Second--Christ did not take equality with God as something to be grasped at because Jesus didn't need to grasp--He is God.


#7

Adam and Eve were supposed to live for ever in the garden of Eden. They disobeyed God and that is when sin and death came into the world.

The death that Satan was talking about was physical death.

The death that God spoke about is spiritual death.
OK so far?

Now, my friend does not believe that we have an immortal soul that survives death so when she reads that by disobeying God that God said they would die He meant just that . Total death. So when I say that there is an immortal soul that survives death I am calling God a liar because he said that Adam and Eve would die.
So I think what she is saying that God said we would die. Period. No surviving immortal soul.

Maybe the above is a little clearer?

Any idea where Adam and Eve’s immortal souls went when they died? Considering that Jesus did not open the gates of heaven yet and neither had Abraham died. (you know the bosom of Abraham, the resting place of the souls before Jesus opened the gates of heaven)


#8

The dead went to sheol–the place of the dead, which became identified with resting place of Abraham for his descendants.


#9

[quote="Della, post:8, topic:319745"]
The dead went to sheol--the place of the dead, which became identified with resting place of Abraham for his descendants.

[/quote]

When I read your comment I decided to look up the word sheol in a Strong's expanded dictionary and I found this:
Sheol is the abode of the dead, a place of degradation, the locality or condition of those who have died or have been destroyed. It is implied that although,so far as the world is concerned, they have perished, yet THEY ARE STILL IN A STATE OF EXISTENCE AND ARE WITHIN GOD'S COGNIZANCE.

What this says to me is that when Adam and Eve died their spirits are still in a state of existence and are known to God. So part of them, their soul/spirit is still in existence.

I found this interesting. I am looking forward to sharing this with my friend.

Thanks:thumbsup:


#10

=Phyllo;10521109]From the DR

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat: and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.

4 And the serpent said to the woman: *No, you shall not die the death.

A JW asked me how the Catholic Church understands the lie that was told to Eve.
Who lied Satan or God?

If there is a part of us that lives after death than God lied?

God said that Eve would die. Body and soul?

Really; where does it say “body and soul”

DR bible: “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die”

KJ Bible:“But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said , Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die”

Friend I would CHECK everything the JW’s claim as truth:thumbsup:

Satan told Eve that she would not die but God told her she would die.

At this point in time did God make provisions for their immortal soul?

God meant Spiritually
Satan physically

They both “died” spirituall as what they did was ATTACK th very Soveriginity og God.:bigyikes:

Did Adam and Eve have and immortal soul?

Thanks

Certianly did:)


#11

It doesn’t say body and soul. That was my question. Did Eve and Adam die in both their body and soul?

DR bible: “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die”

KJ Bible:“But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said , Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die”

Friend I would CHECK everything the JW’s claim as truth:thumbsup:

I do check every thing that is said. And these were her questions to me and now I am asking the folks on the forum.

God meant Spiritually
Satan physically

We either have eternal life or eternal damnation. We don’t die spiritually.

Did you see my post # 9
I think I answered my own question.


#12

If we die in body and soul together, whom or what did the Witch of Endor summon from the grave in 1st Samuel Chapter 28?

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she shrieked at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 But the king said to her, “Have no fear. What do you see?” The woman answered Saul, "I see a preternatural being rising from the earth."
14 “What does he look like?” asked Saul. And she replied, “It is an old man who is rising, clothed in a mantle.” Saul knew that it was Samuel, and so he bowed face to the ground in homage.
15 Samuel then said to Saul, “Why do you disturb me by conjuring me up?”


#13

Of course, Jesus released the blessed souls from sheol when he opened heaven to them during his three days in the tomb, so Adam and Eve are presumed in heaven.


#14

Original sin caused both spiritual and physical death.

Here’s a link to the Catechism for the section on the Fall and Original Sin.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

A couple quotes from the above Catechism Section:

  1. Regarding physical death (death of the body)
    400 …Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

  2. Regarding spiritual death (death of the soul)
    403 …connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”

In it’s section on the Resurrection of the Body, the Catechism says:
1008* Death is a consequence of sin.* The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal, God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM


#15

We have a tendency to think of death as meaning something ceases to exist, but that is an error. Dying doesn’t mean anihilation of either our body or our soul; both continue to exist.

Our material body dies, but the “material” (physical matter) doesn’t cease to exist. It just exists in a state of death since it’s been separated from the soul which is the principle of physical life in a human body.

Likewise a “dead” soul doesn’t cease to exist. It exists in a state where it is separated from God who is the source of spiritual eternal life. All souls continue to exist after physical death - they exist either in a state of life, or in a state of death.

In the 1 Samuel passage it would have been Samuel’s soul the witch was communicating with since the resurrection of our physical bodies has not yet occurred. (By the way, Samuel’s soul very probably was not a “dead” soul since he had chosen to follow God while he was alive.)


#16

[quote="Nan_S, post:12, topic:319745"]
If we die in body and soul together, whom or what did the Witch of Endor summon from the grave in 1st Samuel Chapter 28?

[/quote]

According to my Witness friend it was an evil spirit.


#17

Concise and to the point. Thanks Nita.

My Witness friend thinks that wasn’t Samuel’s soul but an evil spirit . Not easy to talk to her. She doesn’t believe that the spirit lives on after death.


#18

=Phyllo;10523083]It doesn’t say body and soul. That was my question. Did Eve and Adam die in both their body and soul?

I do check every thing that is said. And these were her questions to me and now I am asking the folks on the forum.

We either have eternal life or eternal damnation. We don’t die spiritually.

“Dying Spiritually” means my friend to fall out of God’s grace. ANYONE who physically dies in such a state condems thmeselves to hell. A “Sould killing Spiritual sucidie”.

But Both in the OT Lev.chapters 4 and 5 and in the NT John 20:19-23 God OFFERS a way BACK into His grave ad love.

This is what the actions of Adam and Even dod to their SOULS. So their “death” was Spiritual [of the SOUL] not the body.

THAT said; we do not know if they LATER repented and where forgiven?


#19

If she believes in the existence of an immaterial soul in body while we are alive, then I would quiz her farther on just what she thinks happens to the soul after physical death. Eg. where did it go? does she think it still exists in some way; if so, how is it different after death from what it was before…
If she believes it exists in a living human being but is totally anihilated after physical death, I would ask her where Scripture teaches such a thing. I would ask her about Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration and were seen by Peter, James and John. It may have been possible to deceive the Saul and the witch of Endor, but does she think Jesus can be deceived? (I realize JW’s believe Jesus is St. Michael the Archangel and not God, but even so the question still holds – do they think Jesus/St.Michael could be deceived?)


#20

She believes that the soul will live on in God’s memory


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