Give your Opinion About this

Hello I’m new in this forum , right now I’m having a crisis is not about faith, I’m sure what i Believe, but i have a big problem with my family, my women is “christian” and in some point anti catholic, I’m trying to learn more about my faith and what my Church, i find this “study” on her church, I heard a lot of lies, but i realize that when you are not prepared this kind of “studies” hurt people. please listen to this and give your opinion, this guy sound really sure about what is he talking about, this is kind of training to convince Catholics they are Wrong.

Good Bless You and thank you for your help.

media.calvaryftl.org/player/index.cfm?fn=MA10533&a=1

It is not Catholic.

It is Calvary Chapel in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. They are not Catholic. They are mostly Baptist theology and so of course they think Catholics are wrong

Forget it and move on to something Catholic like Great Adventure/Jeff Cavins. biblestudyforcatholics.com.

-Tim-

Have a look at the Institute for Catholic Culture. They have tons of audio and video. I loaded up my iphone with talks.

instituteofcatholicculture.org/. Click on the Media Library.

-Tim-

I grew up in the Baptist faith. I can assure you that every point or objection they may have about the Catholic faith can be answered quite easily and completely. The Baptist denomination only holds a portion of the fullness of the Christian faith. The Catholic Church IS the fullness of the faith. Begin to really learn your Catholic faith. Know the arguments on both sides so you can see the faults and flaws in the Baptist theology. If you don’t know your Catholic faith, you can be overwhelmed with what they are saying because you can’t see the errors.

Thank you Guys, the reason i post that is because is sad, the guy how is “teaching” call himself a Ex Roman Catholic, even he say that we use to pray the rosary every day? i don’t believe that if yo pray the rosary everyday (I wish i did that) you will never leave Jesus Church. it is funny how this guy never talk about peter and the power give to Apostles, he only refer that to be saved you have to believe and repent, I never get this, he states that when he was “catholic” i have a bad life, and he only repent every Sunday, is that a valid argument to prove Catholic Church is Wrong?

This is an audio file over an hour long. Do you have any specific questions from the talk you have? What did he say that is challenging to you?

I jumped around the file a little bit and heard him criticize praying to Mary. You can read Catholic apologetics on that.

He, Rene Kageff, talked about how he was Catholic he would “say the Rosary faster than anyone.” Well, it’s not Catholic teaching that you need to pray the Rosary fast. That was his own personal scruple.

He sounds like he had a lot of personal issues or maybe bad catechetics, acting like he never heard that he needed to repent when he was Catholic, which is also not Catholic teaching. If someone is going to criticize Catholicism, one should criticize what Catholics actually teach.

At one point, he characterizes Catholic teaching as “we’ve been around for so long, how can we be wrong,” without touching actual Catholic theology of the communion of saints or the body of Christ and prayer.

He criticizes infant baptism in another spot without saying why that’s wrong. Read about that here.

But it sounds like this person is merely criticizing the fundamentalist stereotype of the Catholic Church that we think we can get saved by going through certain motions, yadda, yadda. There’s really not much to respond to since what he’s criticizing isn’t Catholicism.

One thing he said that was indicative of eisegesis is when he said this toward the end of the 36th minute: “In John 12:48, it’s by the Bible that you’ll be judged. His word.” The verse actually says this: “He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

If you listen to many fundamentalists, they will simply assume that when Scripture refers to the “word” or to “my sayings” that this means what is in the Bible alone (along with said fundamentalist’s interpretation of the text). But the reason he is saying this is because he believes that praying to Mary or infant baptism are things alien to the Bible, which of course, they are not. His lack of engagement with Catholic teaching indicates that he does not know how to accurately depict and address actual Catholic teaching in a way that a learned Catholic would recognize as a fair portrayal.

In the 41st minute he said that he used to go and kneel before a statue and “pray to it…and away with my idolatry I went.” What can be said other than Catholics agree with him not to pray “to” a statue. He is criticizing something, but that something is not Catholicism.

He argues in the 43rd minute that Purgatory is taken from “apocryphal” books. Presumably, he believes the only reference to Purgatory, in Scripture anyway, is from 2 Maccabbees. The canon of Scripture is one of the most damning doctrines held by a Bible-only Christian, because they are necessarily dependent on the Tradition which discerned the books of the Bible. So for him to assert Maccabbees is not scriptural is an assertion not based on the Bible, but on his inheritance of a fundamentalist tradition. His argument for why the books were taken out is, according to him, “because they’re heretical.” According to the speaker’s authority, of course.

He tries to say that we can’t pray for the dead because Heb. 9 says after death comes judgment. That’s correct. But so what? If I said after college I got a job, does that mean absolutely nothing can happen between? I can’t drive there? I can’t do a job search? Etc. And purgatory itself is a judgment of sorts because in Purgatory we encounter the Lord who cleanses us of that which he judges as blemishes. And frankly, a person who dies is immediately judged as worthy of heaven also. The text he cites doesn’t eliminate the possibility of being cleansed. He is simply adding his own theology into the text. The speaker simply does not engage Catholic theology.

A woman in the audience (45th minute) asked him how to address a Catholic who believes Maccabbees is Scripture. He danced around the question, cited Hebrews again, and didn’t even address how you confront the idea that Maccabbees is Scripture or not. Perhaps he has no idea how his Bible was assembled.

So basically, Kageff sounds like he had horrible catechesis, doesn’t know where the Bible came from, and is adept at criticizing straw men versions of Catholicism.

No, it’s a terrible argument. I would invite him to come back to Catholicism because just about everything he criticized about the Church was wrong, and therefore he can come back without fear! :o

Marco Thank you very much for opinion and your illustration, really helpful for me, just image is there were someone is the audience, who don’t now anything about Catholicism this will be terrible, this scary me because my family, my Kids are going to that church, and there is not really anything i can do right now, please pray for me. thanks.

I’m working to become a better Christian-catholic everyday, and this forum is just amazing to do that, on the other hand excuse me for my English, on working on that too.

Prayers will be made. You are welcome to come by here any time with any questions or information you need. :o Do you know if Mr. Kageff ever evangelizes online that we might be able to engage conversation with him? I would welcome him to stop by here or might visit a venue he prefers.

thank you again, I’m not sure if Mr Kageff is online, I’m not very familiar wit the Calvary chapel, but i did a research on their webpage and on the speakers list he is not anywhere. they have a web pastor, but it is not him, I’m working on prepare myself to this kind of encounters because my family is going there, so I’m sure that soon i will have a encounter with a Pastor, i have to be fair on something and is that my Kids love to go there, you know those youth bible groups are kind of fun for them, nice music, nice people… but that doesn’t not buy me and i Pray for them, to find the truth and not be impressed by a cool mega church.

Marco Polo:
Thanks for writing the excellent and informative posts on this thread.
:blessyou:
Mary,

No, no…bless YOU. :o
Thx, though.

Marco is always a great contributor, a soldier for Christ.

-Tim-

It’s too much! Likewise, Tim. :knight2:

He, by leaving the Catholic Church and joining a schismatic organization, lost the apostolic faith, and put himself in dire circumstances

“for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.”
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

we see it in scripture

Scripture condemns dissent from the Church Romans 16:17-20

Scripture also give the consequence for dissent from the Church and remaining so. One won’t inherit heaven [/FONT]Galatians 5:19-21

He can’t argue against the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=11161864&postcount=849

we see it in Tradition. :wink:
[LIST]
*]St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæansof which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
*]St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
*]Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3[/FONT]
*]Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54[/FONT]
*]The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
[/LIST]etc etc down to our day

My experience with Calvary Chapel is that they tend to be very anti-Catholic. Avoid them. I suggest you read books by Scott Hahn and other Catholic theologians who specialize in scripture study.

Here’s what they say they believe.

Their Statement of Faith is also of interest. Here’s that “pastor’s” online profile.

Amo, I’d have to say that you have a real serious problem there. Your wife is being deceived rather badly. It’s unfortunate that your kids are being exposed to that anti-Catholic propaganda, all of which is far more easily refuted than that guy is leading his listeners to believe.

Stick around here my friend and you’ll see what I mean.

These links will answer his allegation of Mariolotry.

[LIST]
*]Saint Worship?
*]Is Prayer Synonymous With Worship?
*]Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine
*]Praying to the Saints
*]The Intercession of the Saints
*]Is Mary’s and the saints’ intercession unbiblical?
[/LIST]
And on praying for the dead.

[LIST]
*]The Roots of Purgatory
*]Purgatory
*]If the souls in purgatory are destined for heaven, why do we pray for them?
*]Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
[/LIST]
His attacks on the Deuterocanonical books of the Catholic Bible are answered as follows.

[LIST]
*]Didn’t the Catholic Church add to the Bible?
*]Are the deuterocanonical books found in the Septuagint?
*]The Deuterocanonical Books of the Catholic Bible
[/LIST]
Another one that may also be helpful is Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

Stay in touch and let us know about anything else that you face.

Thank you Guys for respond a for the support I’m glad to find this site and to find you, also i ask you that please Pray for me and for the unity of the Church that is what Jesus Want, please pray to Jesus to help all the Christians Find the truth, Amen.

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