Gloria omitted during ordinary time


#1

Today I was complaining that it bothers me that most of the times the Gloria is omitted during the early Mass on Sunday morning. I was told as by a parishoner and by a deacon that the celebrant can omit it on Sundays of ordinary time. I looked at the GIRM and the only thing that I see is that the introductory rites can be omitted or celebrated in a particular way only in certain celebrations that are combined with Mass according to the norms of the liturgical books (GIRM 46). My understanding is that It is sung or said on Sundays outside Advent and Lent, and also on Solemnities and Feasts, and at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.t (GIRM 53).

Does anyone have a reference to any document that it shows that it can be omitted on Sundays of ordinary time?


#2

[quote="Cristiano, post:1, topic:301843"]
Does anyone have a reference to any document that it shows that it can be omitted on Sundays of ordinary time?

[/quote]

Non-existent.


#3

The Gloria is not optional. It is omitted during Advent and Lent because of the penitential nature of the seasons.


#4

[quote="buc_fan33, post:3, topic:301843"]
The Gloria is not optional. It is omitted during Advent and Lent because of the penitential nature of the seasons.

[/quote]

Hence why the documentation that states that the Gloria can be omitted during Ordinary Time is non-existent.


#5

I was wondering if the USCCB wrote some document that could give the impression that the celebrant has a choice during ordinary time. I know whom to ask and get a sure answer but that would open a major can of diplomatic worms and it would strain a lot of relationships.


#6

Wouldn’t surprise me.


#7

[quote="Cristiano, post:5, topic:301843"]
I was wondering if the USCCB wrote some document that could give the impression that the celebrant has a choice during ordinary time. I know whom to ask and get a sure answer but that would open a major can of diplomatic worms and it would strain a lot of relationships.

[/quote]

Also non-existent.


#8

I understand that there are quite a few people that agree with me and I appreciate them sharing their opinions. However, it would be more helpful if someone that disagrees would help me by providing some objective indication. I am not looking for an argument, I am just trying to understand the logic or document for a possible divergence of views. :slight_smile:


#9

I think I remember it not being said during oridinary time.

Off topic but I was a bit annoyed that they sang it in Latin this past Sunday because I couldn’t pray along, just sat there in confused silence with everybody else.


#10

[quote="Cristiano, post:8, topic:301843"]
I understand that there are quite a few people that agree with me and I appreciate them sharing their opinions.

[/quote]

The thing is, they're not giving you "opinions". From the Roman Missal, in the section 'Proper of Time', the rubrics state: "The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) and the Creed are said on Sundays; on weekdays, however, both are omitted."

(Of course, for other times (e.g., Advent, Lent, Christmas, Easter, etc), there are specific rubrics for the day. I'm guessing that you're making a general statement, and so, I've quoted you the norm for Ordinary Time.)

Blessings,

G.


#11

Those are still personal opinions whether they are correct or not. We do not have the authority to make statements in regard. We can only share documents from the Church and explain our interpretation in a manner that appears consistent with the factual documents but at the end it is still our personal opinion. The GIRM is a fundamental reference but that does not imply that there could not be other documents out there that could change the reality of the situation. That is why I am asking for extra documents from people that could accept a different point of view.


#12

[quote="Cristiano, post:11, topic:301843"]
Those are still personal opinions whether they are correct or not. We do not have the authority to make statements in regard. We can only share documents from the Church and explain our interpretation in a manner that appears consistent with the factual documents but at the end it is still our personal opinion. The GIRM is a fundamental reference but that does not imply that there could not be other documents out there that could change the reality of the situation. That is why I am asking for extra documents from people that could accept a different point of view.

[/quote]

There's no interpretation needed. The missal says "gloria on Sundays in OT." Therefore, we are obligated to say the gloria every Sunday in OT UNLESS someone is able to come up with an authoritative reference directly to the contrary.


#13

[quote="J_Peterson, post:9, topic:301843"]
Off topic but I was a bit annoyed that they sang it in Latin this past Sunday because I couldn't pray along, just sat there in confused silence with everybody else.

[/quote]

Are you sure everyone else was confused in their silence?

The Gloria has some beautiful settings, in the vernacular and in Latin, and it's one of the prayers of Mass that it might be helpful to be at least a little familiar with in Latin.

If you've ever sung "Angels we have heard on high" (popular during the Christmas season), you know "Glo-o-o-o-o-ria in excelsis Deo", which are the first words of the Gloria.


#14

[quote="japhy, post:13, topic:301843"]
Are you sure everyone else was confused in their silence?

The Gloria has some beautiful settings, in the vernacular and in Latin, and it's one of the prayers of Mass that it might be helpful to be at least a little familiar with in Latin.

If you've ever sung "Angels we have heard on high" (popular during the Christmas season), you know "Glo-o-o-o-o-ria in excelsis Deo", which are the first words of the Gloria.

[/quote]

I could be wrong. It was a weird moment though, it seemed like the Cantor lost her place and I couldn't hear the choir over the organ so something seemed amis. I've never heard this particular melody before.


#15

:thumbsup: This.

[quote=Cristiano, post:11, topic:301843"]
The GIRM is a fundamental reference but that does not imply that there could not be other documents out there that could change the reality of the situation.

[/quote]

And if I'd quoted from the GIRM for you, then you might make this argument. I didn't. I quoted directly from the Missal itself. Since this is the liturgical document that is the authority with respect to the text and rubrics of the Mass, there's no question that it supercedes any other 'opinions' or 'documents' with respect to the Mass.

Those are still personal opinions whether they are correct or not.

I'm really confused how you might make this assertion. I'm not giving you an out-of-context quote and providing a personal reflection on it. Rather, I'm quoting the authoritative Church document, and letting it stand on its own. To call this an 'opinion' is a mis-characterization.

We do not have the authority to make statements in regard. We can only share documents from the Church and explain our interpretation

Like I said, you're misunderstanding what I'm doing here: no assertion of personal authority, no interpretation.


#16

[quote="Gorgias, post:15, topic:301843"]
And if I'd quoted from the GIRM for you, then you might make this argument. I didn't. I quoted directly from the Missal itself. Since this is the liturgical document that is the authority with respect to the text and rubrics of the Mass, there's no question that it supercedes any other 'opinions' or 'documents' with respect to the Mass.

[/quote]

Even if you quoted the GIRM, that argument still wouldn't fly. It may be general, but that just means they may be changed by other authortative sources (such as the rite of Marriage book, or other ritual books).

"general" does not mean "ignorable"


#17

Sure it would. At the place where it talks about the Gloria, the GIRM says something like “when required, the Gloria is sung or recited.”

I think that you and Cristiano are saying the same thing: the GIRM may be superceded by the appropriate document. In responding to Cristiano, I’ve attempted to clarify that what I’ve done is to provide not the GIRM, but the text of that appropriate document… :wink:


#18

We have a few local priests who leave things out … one leaves out the Gloria. The other omits the Credo.

God love 'em. They’re loving and kind. They’ve never explained their omissions.

As far as whether there are instructions or decrees that allow this … the GIRM is the final authority. Opinions to the contrary by anyone even if they claim to speak or write with authority would be meaningless.


#19

[quote="ilySHJ, post:18, topic:301843"]
We have a few local priests who leave things out … one leaves out the Gloria. The other omits the Credo.

God love 'em. They're loving and kind. They've never explained their omissions.

As far as whether there are instructions or decrees that allow this … the GIRM is the final authority. Opinions to the contrary by anyone even if they claim to speak or write with authority would be meaningless.

[/quote]

Actually, it's not quite like that. If something actually has authority, then it can supersede the GIRM. For example, the rite of Marriage book specifies that a prayer be added after the our father, and other prayers be omitted. The GIRM doesn't allow it, but that is still the correct thing to do at a wedding Mass.


#20

Cristiano, do you go to my parish? :D

My pastor omits the Gloria every single week without fail, and I posted on this very topic a few months ago. I only moved to this parish after Easter, so I'm not sure whether the Gloria will make a return once it's no longer ordinary time. In many ways, my current parish is lovely. The people are friendly, it really has a sense of community, the parish is growing and there seem to be a lot of children, there's lots of ministry and volunteer opportunities, etc. But I do sorely miss the Gloria and I have to say that its absence tempts me to drive the 20+ minutes to other parishes in this rural area. Sigh.

What I've taken to doing is praying the Gloria as I kneel before Mass -- it's not the same as including it in the Mass, but that way I do pray it on Sundays...


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