"God and Jesus": Is this a proper Trinitarian thing to say?


#1

“God and Jesus”.

That phrase gives me the impression of two distinct beings. What do you christians think? Does this phrase comply with the doctrine of the Trinity?


#2

It depends on what you are using the phrase to say and what you mean by it. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with the phrase because “Jesus” is the historical presence in the world of the WORD. As such a distinction can be made legitimately - as long as one does not intend an elimination of the unity of Persons in the Godhead.

(“person” in this context is a philosophical term, not to be confused with “person” as it is used in common parlance)


#3

It should be more properly phrased as the Father and Jesus. “God and Jesus” suggests that Jesus is not God, even if it was not meant that way, and it kind of ignores the Holy Spirit.


#4

No, I don’t think so. Because Catholic doctrine says that God is the Trinity.

So basically if one says: “God and Jesus”, or “God sent His Son Jesus”, they are saying in effect, “Trinity and Jesus” or “Trinity sent His Son Jesus”.

So, in Catholicism, God = Trinity

Now, if you agree with me so far, we have a problem. Because the bible refers to “God”, NOT “God the Father” sending His Son Jesus:

These are the words from Jesus

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus DIDN’T say “God the Father so loved the world”, but “God so loved the world”.

Is Jesus saying (in effect): “For the Trinity so loved the world…”? No.

What does that mean then? I have been wondering why, if Jesus knew that He was the Son in the triune God, why He would say that God (the whole God) is separate from Himself.


#5

YES Marsha! exactly my point. I have been so confused about this.

But you know what, the bible says “God and Jesus”. Jesus even says, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”

I think Jesus may have thought God was separate from Himself.

There aer many examles. See these as well:

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. why didnt Jesus say “God the Father”? Why did He only say “God”?

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Peter says that “God”, not “God the Father”, made Jesus both Lord and Christ.


#6

MH84,

the Bible uses Father as God. What makes you think that when Jesus says God, he did not mean Father when He Himself adresses God as Father?


#7

Those who are voting the third option, think long and hard about why you are.

God is often distinguished from Jesus in the bible. Jesus even distinguishes Himself from God. See my above post.


#8

when we say God and Jesus, we are talking about God the Father and Jesus. A Christian should have no problem understanding this, should he?


#9

How do you know that Christians haven’t just put their own meaning and opinion into the words?


#10

Certainly, Jesus meant and knew that God is His Father. But if God is His Father, Jesus can’t be God as well. Can’t you see that?

Remember, Christians say that “God” = “Trinity”. You would then be saying that the Trinity is Jesus’ Father.


#11

People with a solid foundation in the theology will understand that the reference to God is most likely a reference to the Father, or to the God of the Jews, who did not understand the trinitarian nature of God. But there’s no good reason I can think of to still use such terminology. It is unclear and without any reason to be so.


#12

#13

Why didn’t Jesus Himself say to Nicodemus,(perhaps His Apostles were around as well, who apparently believed in the Trinity), that “God the Father so loved the world…”?

I just wrote this in another thread (it applies here):

If Jesus knew He was part of the triune God, why DID He say His Father is God, WITHOUT clarifying which Person? How do we know if Jesus was talking about the Father or the Holy Spirit? They are both God, aren’t they?

Christians (like me), two thousand years later now just assume that “God” equals “God the Father”. Jesus never mentioned anything about this terminology.


#14

MH84:

You must remember when quoting these passages that the Church teaches that the Trinity cannot be proven using the Bible Alone. It is entirely possible that the human authors of the Bible did not at the time understand the mystery of the Trinity and were having a rough time writing down what the Holy Spirit was revealing to them.

Marsha


#15

#16

#17

I have heard this too. It doesn’t hold water though. I have seen Catholics say that Mary knew Jesus was God. If this is the case, how come the apostles didn’t? How come they were so surprised that God could rise from the dead?

How come the Catholic Church says that she teaches what the Apostles believed? By what you are saying, this can’t be the case.


#18

#19

the Father is the creator through His Wisdom and Spirit. One does not deny the other. The Word proceeds from the Father, not the other way round.

Why would the authors of this creed go out of their way to say God the Father is almighty, but not include Jesus and the Holy Spirit with these titles.

Because the Father is not seperate from His Word and Spirit. When you say " Father", it does not mean He no longer has Word and Spirit.
[/quote]


#20

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