God Can Not Know The Future


#242

I hugely contend that one who knows the future may not be able to change it. For instance, God in giving prophecy does give chances to escape destruction, saying if they turn back, they will avoid the fate prescribed.
But, in ie Revelations, it is presented as what will happen.

Have you ever read MacBeth? The idea of the self fulfilling prophecy is one example wherein one cannot change the future by being told it, in fact being told it causes it in some shape or form.

Another reason is that God is God. He knows what you will do and what will happen already. If He says something will happen, it will happen regardless of what people do to try to advance or stop it. He can make it so, and He already knows it will be so.


#243

Hi, it is simpler than you think. If you received knowledge from God that you would turn left at the next fork in the road then there is some reason you will decide to do it when it comes time. Though you may have the intention to choose the right hand path as you approach the fork. The reason his foreknowledge is accurate is because receiving the prophecy that you will go left is in a future wherein you received the prophecy and God knew you would intend to go right but that you would in fact go left when you came to the fork. Perhaps for good reason.


#244

This short documentary of time may be of interest to you.

It claims that time is an illusion and that past, present and future all exist and that our conscious being experiences it as a progression. We think in terms of now, then, before because that is how we experience it but that is not how it is in reality (according to the documentary). The thoughts of the documentary would also suggest that any logic we have based on the illusion of the progression of time is suspect.


#245

Sorry I couldn’t resist. (I did try) :slight_smile:


#246

I am not buying the idea stated by Sean Carroll in the video that there is just as much reality to the future and the past as there is to the present. That is because you can know the present and the past but you cannot know the future. Suppose you did know the future and you knew that tomorrow you would buy a chocolate ice cream cone. Well, tomorrow comes and you can change your mind and buy a vanilla ice cream cone instead. You can’t do that with the past. If you bought a chocolate ice cream cone two days ago, you can’t go back and change it to a vanilla ice cream cone.


#247

The idea is that such things exist but you only experience it one bit at a time. You only realise that you buy/bought the ice cream when your experience gets to that part. The question then becomes why if all reality exists already do we only experience and realise it one bit at a time?

It is a similar question with regards to physical reality. Quantum physics suggests that all matter is connected in potentiality waves but we only experience it in a ‘concreate’ physical reality. Why?

It seems to put a conscious being at a different relationship to Creation than non conscious things. This is probably the biggest scientific argument for God in my opinion.


#248

He could not write it down and show it to me, because I could do the opposite.


#249

Well, you could claim that you would want to do the opposite, or that you would try to do the opposite. But, if God knows that you will choose to do what He writes down to you, then you’ll choose it. (Not be forced into it, mind you: choose it. Even if you claim that you wouldn’t – after all, you don’t know what you’re going to choose, or why.)

Remember: in order to prove that God’s not omniscient, you have to presume that you’re omnipotent (that is, that you are more powerful than God). Once you can demonstrate the latter, then we can talk about the former. :wink:


#250

That is a lot of nonsense, completely destroying free will.


#251

Only if you can prove that God knowing what you will choose somehow causally determines or necessitates what you will do.

The fallacy of retrospective determinism seems implicit in your claim.

Knowledge or foreknowledge isn’t self-evidently causally efficacious. Certainly not to the point of “completely destroying free will.”


#252

Is the OP saying that when Our Lord informed Peter that Peter would betray him 3 times before the cock crowed, that was just an educated guess?

Let’s remember that philosophical models must concede to reality in order to be true, not the other way around. Philosophical theories are not the Truth. They are a human’s attempt to put the vast sea that is Truth into a hole the size of a sand bucket.


#253

Absolutely not.

After all, if I’m in a plane, watching you drive down the road, I could radio down to you, saying, “You’re not going to turn right at the next intersection.” Am I thwarting your free will? Am I determining your choice? Absolutely not – I just have perspective you do not have… and I can see that the road is blocked, and therefore, I can predict your action. :wink:


#254

Parents, imperfect though their knowledge is, can see the natural consequences of their childrens’ behavior coming when the children cannot. They know the boundary that exists between intention and outcome. In love they limit how consequential the decisions of the child will be. How much more so does the Creator of All and the Author of Free Will understand how the play of the free (but not unlimited) will of humankind will play out.

God, after all, has Free Will, too. God’s Will alone is all-powerful, all-knowing, entirely just and the entire foundation of all reality. Even though God gives us the power to choose, that does not change that God does not make any choices without those choices being thoroughly known to God in both their consequences and their utter justice.


#255

I thought god already died. He isn’t here anymore? Just like if i died tbh.


#256

What do you base this conclusion on. God being timeless knew from all time every act he would do. He couldn’t change his mind. That requires consideration of prior actions, involving time. God has no Free Will as we conceive it.


#257

No, because God can see all of Time and Space simultaneously. God is changeless not because God is imprisoned in time, as we are, but because God is not only literally but impeccably and definitively above and beyond the constraints of time. God is not imprisoned in either the Past or the Future but is the Sovereign of Time for all eternity. God is All-Powerful, boundless and free beyond all measure. God can only act according to the nature of God, but the absolute freedom of Love has no corner of it that is enslaving.

Similarly, our greatest freedom is to act according to the Will of God. That is the greatest freedom there is.
As one priest put it, “Brothers and sisters, if that is not the Good News, there can be no good news!!”


#258

No, He overcame death in the Resurrection. Death could not hold Him.


#259

[quote=“PetraG, post:257, topic:453091”]
No, because God can see all of Time and Space simultaneously. God is changeless not because God is imprisoned in time, as we are, but because God is not only literally but impeccably and definitively above and beyond the constraints of time. God is not imprisoned in either the Past or the Future but is the Sovereign of Time for all eternity. God is All-Powerful, boundless and free beyond all measure. God can only act according to the nature of God, but the absolute freedom of Love has no corner of it that is enslaving…/quote]

THIS TYPE ANSWER TO A SENSIBLE QUESTION IS THE MAIN REASON I FIND DISCUSSIONS ON THIS GROUP ARE A WASTE OF TIME. YOU HAVE STATED A BUNCH OF SEEMINGLY PIUS VERBIAGE WHICH IN NO WAY ADDRESSES THE QUESTION POSED. AND WHAT YOU SAY IS ALL OPINION, NOT BASED ON ANY HARD FACTS, PROOF, ETC. YOU REALLY DON’T KNOW IF ANYTHING YOU SAID IS TRUE.


#260

First of all, all caps is shouting. Do not start shouting and expect a constructive discussion. You are not the only one who counts their time as being worth something.

What was your question? You seem to be posing a premise as if it were a fact and then rejecting anyone who rejects your premise, even if your premise is rejected on the grounds that it falsely put limits on the Divine.

The premise that God does not have free will is flawed. It is founded on an outright rejection of Divine Omnipotence and a serious misunderstanding of Divine Wisdom and the Divine Will.

CCC 272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus “the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”(1 Cor 1:24-25) It is in Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”(Eph 1:19-22)

CCC 271 God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary: "In God, power, essence, will, intellect, wisdom, and justice are all identical. Nothing therefore can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect. (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I, 25, 5, ad I.)

If revealed truth is not something you would classify as “factual,” then yes, you are coming to the wrong place for “discussions.” I don’t know where else you imagine you are going to get “facts” about the Divine, but we do hold to the faith as it has been handed down from the Apostles.

There is nothing to “discuss,” if by a “discussion” you mean you can simply throw out any premise you like with the self-granted authority to reject all objections to it out of hand as being “pius verbage.” If that is the kind of discussion you want, you are quite right in counting me out.


#261

Umm… you realize that this is a philosophy sub-forum, not an ‘empirical science’ one, right? :roll_eyes:


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.