Just one question: Does God know what you will decide before or only when you decide to do the opposite of what God reveals or do you suppose you can keep that decision a secret from God’s knowledge until you actually do it?
I think you are putting God inside time. God simply knows our future and can reveal it to us. No need to say that I cannot understand how an eternal knowledge can be transformed into temporal one.
If you do not admit foreknowledge to any being then you do not admit God.
You cannot do the opposite of what God reveals will certainly be.
Why God should have foreknowledge? Do you have an argument for that?
I am making an argument against that. Does God’s foreknowledge can cause? No. Who can decide and cause? Me.
God is perfect in all respects so is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. God is not limited by relativities or the appearance of time.
No you cannot cause anything unless God allows you to. You are not a free agent like God.
We are dealing with a problem regarding foreknowledge. I provided an argument against it and you only stress that God is omniscient therefore He has foreknowledge.
How do you know? What is wrong with that?
That really doesn’t cut. Well, I am here, alive and I can make decision. Whether that is God who hold my existence is subject of another discussion but even if we accept that we know that we can cause.
I thought that we were free agents responsible for our actions. If not, then sin does not exist.
You can only make some decisions.
See the definition in Modern Catholic Dictionary, omniscience
God’s knowledge of all things. Revelation discloses that the wisdom of God is without measure (Psalm 146:5). And the Church teaches that his knowledge is infinite.
The primary object of divine cognition is God himself, whom he knows immediately, that is, without any medium by which he apprehends his nature. He knows himself through himself.
The secondary objects of divine knowledge are everything else, namely the purely possible, the real, and the conditionally future. He knows all that is merely possible by what is called the knowledge of simple intelligence. This means that, in comprehending his infinite imitability and his omnipotence, God knows therein the whole sphere of the possible.
He knows all real things in the past, present, and the future by his knowledge of vision. When God, in his self-consciousness, beholds his infinite operative power, he knows therein all that he, as the main effective cause actually comprehends, i.e., all reality. The difference between past, present, and future does not exist for the divine knowledge, since for God all is simultaneously present.
By the same knowledge of vision, God also foresees the future free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. As taught by the Church, “All things are naked and open to His eyes, even those things that will happen through the free actions of creatures” (Denzinger 3003). The future free actions foreseen by God follow infallibly not because God substitutes his will for the free wills of his creatures but because he does not interfere with the freedom that he foresees creatures will exercise. (Etym. Latin omnis, all + scire, to know.)
Is there some other definition that you are using and if so why do you oppose what is used in Theology?
I’m cool with the fact that you don’t accept it. However, you’ve been shown that your logic is faulty. Refuse to accept it all you like… you’re still mistaken.
Umm… it’s called a ‘definition’. The definition of ‘omniscent’ is “having all knowledge” (which would include foreknowledge).
Because He created time.
By what power, then, are you “alive and [able to] make decisions”? By the power of your Creator – God. QED.
Strictly speaking we do not do everything freely for some acts are impulse.
Wilful, proceeding from the will. It is requisite that the thing be an effect of the will consequent upon actual knowledge, either formal or virtual, in the rational agent. It is not quite the same as free; for a free act supposes self-determination proceeding from an agent capable, at the time, of determining himself or not at his choice. However, as every specific voluntary act in this life is also free (except those rare will-impulses, when man is swept to sudden action without time to perceive in non-action the element of good requisite for determination not to act) the moralist commonly uses the terms voluntary and free interchangeably.
Macksey, C. (1912). Voluntary. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15506a.htm
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. …
Of course we know also that we are not always responsible because free will was not present in the act.
Deal with his whole assertion, please, and not just part of it. @Vico isn’t saying “humans aren’t free agents”; he’s saying “humans aren’t free agents like God”. This is true – our freedom proceeds from God’s gift of free will.
(God, on the other hand, does not owe His freedom to any other being or power. Critical difference. )
We have free will in terms of morality.
We are free to choose between good and evil acts.
Goodness lies in doing Gods will.
God is transcendent yet in each and every event.
He knows each and every event.
One knows God, giving oneself over to Him.
If you find in your conversation with God that you will carry out some act in the future, you cannot but do it, having given yourself to doing His will.
Should you be planning to go against His will, you cannot come to Him, you cannot hear Him.
He cannot tell you what you would not do because you’re not listening.
Then I am puzzled.
If God “simply knows our future,” does that not imply that he is “inside time” in some way, at least in the future, to know our future? And if in the future why not inside time in the present and in the past?
I am not asking you to know how eternal knowledge is transformed into temporal knowledge (or vice versa,) but to acknowledge that in the traditional or classical theistic view of God – ostensibly the one you are arguing against – God knows all things, past, present and future, from his eternal perspective. Thus if he knows all things that have, are and will happen at any point in time as if they are all current to him, so to speak, then he would know every single reason or determiner for every thought you might have from his perspective in eternity. Ergo, there is no time at which God does not know what you will do.
Why would he predict something – even in writing (on tablets of stone, I suppose) – that you could contradict by your decision as if he is completely clueless about the process of your thinking that will lead to your decision?
He would know from eternity (I.e., NOT stuck “inside time”) every one of your thoughts, independent of YOUR stuck “inside time” and thus limited process of deliberation, by which you could come to any decision at all. Thus, he could change the circumstances around you in such a way as to seriously influence your thought process and thus your decision itself anywhere along the entire timeline leading to your decision, if he so chose.
Well. This is not fair. You replace my argument and question with three dots and ignore the main part of my discussion and answer to a part.
And again, conscious decision is FREE and can make by any human being. The fact that it is free allows us to do opposite of what God reveals we do.
I read that definition. But any definition should be logically consistent and this definition is not since include foreknowledge in omniscience.
I am not mistaken. The idea of foreknowledge in a agent which has ability to communicate it with other is definitely wrong. Therefore you are mistaken.
Yes, it is definition but any definition should be logically consistent which this definition is not since the concept of foreknowledge is paradoxical and cannot be added to knowledge.
Time cannot be created. I am an argument for that. Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory therefore it cannot be an emergent property of the same theory therefore such a theory does not exist. Theories form knowledge. Knowledge are necessary for any intellectual action. Therefore the act of creation of time is impossible.
It doesn’t really matter with which power. The idea is that I am free agent then the rest of my argument follow. QED.
God doesn’t need to be in time to know what we know according to your system of belief.
That I can agree with that God knows everything. But the problem is how God could know a specific situation at the specific time. For that God needs a stamp on specific part of his knowledge. This stamp however changes by time therefore God becomes subject to time.
The act of decision is simply unpredictable even by God if He could be temporal.
Yes, He can do all things. But none of these is related to the issue that I am raising. I ask God what I am going to do. God says X. I do Y. Then there is a contradiction.
His “stamp” need not be applied until the event passes from future possibility to actuality in the present and “stamped” when the present moves into the past. He would know all those events which he has so “stamped” which means you would have no possibility of changing them once they have been “time-stamped” in this way.
Okay, I’m game. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Provide a verifiable example of “God says X,” and you “do Y,” If you want to insist upon an actual contradiction existing, you need to give an actualized example, otherwise it remains in your imagination and not in reality. For a real contradiction to exist, it has to be an actual contradiction, not merely a hypothetical one. We can all imagine things, proving them true is a different matter, however. We have your napkin sketch, now make it happen.
We’ll wait until your prediction actually takes place, then we will be convinced. In the meantime, what is this X that God has actually and verifiably said to you that you plan on contradicting, and when is this X supposed to occur? Details please.
You have a captive audience.
Yes, if God allows it.
Foreknowledge is included in omniscience because for God, all time is “now” .
There are different views using different logic and assumptions.