God chooses who he wants to save

Contrary to what most think, It is God who he wants to save. He does this via predestination

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:22-23

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, Ephesians 1:4

The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Proverbs 16:4

It is easy to pick verses out of context like this and then claim they support a position, but that’s not good biblical exegesis. :slight_smile:

All the verses that refer to predestination are not speaking of an absolute condition but one that is the consequence of those who cooperated with God’s grace or didn’t do so. God certainly knows who will be saved and who won’t and decides who will be saved and who won’t but he doesn’t create people to be destroyed. Rather, he loves all men and wants all men to come to repentance.

If people do not repent, they will be damned, that is certain, and God knows who those people are, but they still had a part to play in their salvation so that no man can say that God is partial or kept his mercy from them.

so by saying repenting and putting faith in god is enough? No repenting is not just enough. God has to grant repentance which means you are the elect 2 timothy 2:24-26

On one’s death bed it is enough, although one may still have to be purged of earthly attachments and pay for the temporal harm their sins have incurred. Of course, a one time repentance is not enough for living out our lives in faithfulness. We must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” It’s a daily process of conversion–cooperating with God’s grace at every moment of our lives.

God has to grant repentance which means you are the elect 2 timothy 2:24-26

From Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary:

Ver. 25. If at any time[10] God may touch the hearts of those who believe not, or who lead a wicked life. (Witham) — In the Greek it is mepote, lest; that is, correct those who resist the truth, in hopes that God will some time bring them by repentance to the knowledge of the truth. The Greek does not express a fear that they will repent, but a certain doubt, mixed with strong hope and earnest desire of their conversion. Conversion from sin and heresy is the gift of God, yet we see good exhortations and prayers are available thereto; which would not be the case if we had not free-will. But these exhortations, to be profitable, must be made as the apostle says, en praoteti; i.e. with modesty and meekness. Si fortè det Deus illis meliorem mentem; i.e. ut perveniant ad agnitionem ejus veritatis, quam nunc oppugnant.

St. Paul is here exhorting the faithful to pray earnestly for those who resist the truth in the hopes of their repentance because God gives repentance to them through our prayers. It is not saying that God withholds repentance from anyone.

There is no contradiction in the idea that God freely choses who shall be saved and man choosing God by the grace given to him. If there’s a particular Catholic teaching you reject or do not understand, feel free to post the specific Catechism or conciliar paragraph.

Predestination is just an excuse to sin. God is all knowing however he gives us free will I fact this is stated in the Bible. Predestination contradicts scripture. Also you are taking verse out of context ( cherry picking)

Excellent response. I see so often, people choosing to interpret one or two lines of scripture, and usually out of context, making seriously erroneous mistakes about the real meaning of God’s plan for us. They only serve to confine themselves and others to an apparently restrictive, unforgiving and vengeful God when they do this.

Jesus the savior desires that everyone be saved.

This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Jesus died for all men, for everyone, for all.

*The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (Romans 6:10)

He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)*

When something is repeated in the Bible like that we have to take notice. God is trying to tell us something. Salvation is available to everyone.

-Tim-

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

God gives everyone sufficient grace to go to heaven. If he didn’t then he would be unjust and not truely a Father and a Provider. But God is all Good and would never sin against any one of us.

So if he provides us with the means to arrive at our true happiness, and we don’t arrive, then who is at fault?

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

Epehsians14 your personal interpretation of the scriptures, does not comply with the mind and words of Jesus, God, Son of God.

Of course the wicked have their day of disaster, but not for the reasons you think. Their day of disaster happens because of their choices in life, as Jesus said.
Of course the wicked will merit disaster and the day is prepared in the sense that we deserve disaster if we ignore Jesus command to love God above all and others as ourselves in practical kindness.

Listen to Jesus who makes clear why the wicked do face a day of disaster.
Jesus knows the truth as He is God and He is Judge of souls, or rather, He expresses the judgement they have laid on themselves:

Matthew 25:31-46

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’

41Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

I believe my son is saved though maybe some of you will not. He died a month ago at age 28 after years of mental and physical pain and suffering. He was born catholic and was baptized. We went to church for a few years and he quit going in his teenage years. But he was a good and kind soul.

He suffered his whole life. I first noticed when he was five and a relative died. He got so traumatized he did not eat for three weeks, drooled, wringed his hands constantly, couldn’t sit still for long, had nervous tics develop in his eyes, etc., etc. Off and on throughout his life he went for counseling. He suffered from depression and severe anxiety, fears and phobias.

Then there was his physical problems. He became super morbidly obese. He was in constant pain and suffering and always scared he was going to die at night before he awoke in the morning. He wanted to lose weight but he had a terrible addiction with food, he used, I believe, as a bandaid to all his mental problems. He told me he prayed every night to God to please help his pain and his fears. To heal him. To not let him die during the night.

About four months before he died he told me he didn’t believe in God anymore. I was shocked. He said he couldn’t believe God let people suffer and die like they did. Really good people too. He couldn’t believe God would send all the good people of other religions and beliefs to hell because Jesus wasn’t in their beliefs. I don’t choose to believe that he really believed this. I think he was just angry with God for not helping him in his pain. He didn’t understand.

In the hospital, the day we found out that he was going to die and there was nothing they could do to save him I asked him to turn to Jesus. He said “Mom, you can’t do that just because you find out you are fixing to die. He wouldn’t believe you mean it, that you were just scared because you were dying.” And he was very scared and in shock and didn’t want to die of course. I was going to get a priest to come talk to him but couldn’t find one that evening that could come see him. And he died overnight. A sister came to pray over him a couple of hours or so after he died.

As you can imagine I am so scared for my son’s soul. I have prayed for years for him, day and night, for God to heal him. In the hospital the night before he died when he was in the process of dying and suffering really bad, I was so upset and scared that I said to the devil to leave my boy alone. He is a child of God’s. He belongs to God and I claim this for him. And I made the sign of the cross on him. The days in the hospital that he was able to he let the priest or sister, that made the daily rounds, come in and pray for him. The night he died he told a friend that he had faith and hope that he was going to get better. If he had faith and hope, to me, that means that deep down he believed in God. God is all about faith and hope. And God is merciful and forgiving and knows our true heart and mind even better than we do. I believe that God knew the soul that my beautiful son has and that he is in heaven with our Lord right now. Or at least in purgatory and i pray for the respose of his soul throughout the day and night as often as I think about it. I don’t believe for a second that God made hell for someone like my son. He was a sinner, for sure, as we all are. But he was kind and very good. And I believe he believed in God, his mental state was just too messed up and in so much pain. He thought God could of just healed him.

I’ve talked to several people, Christians, my grief counselor and my son’s doctor who are both Christians, and even a sister from the hospital. They all reassure me that my son is in heaven with God. The sister from the hospital told me that she has seen cases like my son’s many times over the years and she understands the way my son was and she said that just the fact that at the end he couldn’t turn to Jesus because he didn’t think he could shows his mental state and kept him from doing so. She assured me, from what I told her, that he is in heaven. I don’t believe God is so black and white. You do this or you go to hell. Like I said, He is merciful and knows us inside and out

I’m sorry this is so long and I hope it is permitted. I’m a grieving mom who is still having doubts despite all the reassurances I’ve been given. To know that I have to go through the rest of my life worrying about this is unbearable. In fact it is kind of keeping me from grieving for my son like I should be doing making it twice as hard. Do any of you understand what I am saying or do you just see God as black and white and not capable of, even at judgement, seeing into the precious soul of a troubled mind and being forgiving. Help me please.

Dear marymmma.
There is a moment in Jesus’ life that can answer your concerns.
As Jesus hung on the cross, dying, struggling to breath which He could only do by dragging up to breathe from His tortured body, abandoned by friends, his mission seemingly in tatters, He also cried out, "My God, My God, why have You abandoned Me?’ So your son, also, cried out in his mental and physical suffering, “My God, why have You abandoned me?”
Do you not think Jesus understood perfectly dear mother.

I wrote this at one time. Perhaps something in it speaks for you a little?

The grieving heart

Dear Mother Mary, please comfort each grieving heart in the waves of pain that frequently engulf it. Sustain it when dark mourning closes out all light of comfort and hope , and when prayer seems no longer possible.

Obtain the gentle understanding and warm companionship of others to nurture the stricken heart and lead it towards hope and new life. Sustain it with faith and bring it to true generosity of spirit even in its sorrow.

You deeply experienced the laceration of suffering and bereavement, Mother. It entered and filled your Son’s life, piercing your soul, echoing through all your years. You watched your beloved Child follow a path that led to His earthly annihilation. Grieving, you were powerless to murmur or to prevent Him who must be about His divine Father’s affairs. You suffered, prayed, and loved in silent faith, as so many parents must.

Like innumerable mothers (parents)throughout the ages, you watched with anguish the struggling progress of your Son’s destiny, amid rising danger of circumstance and others’ opposition. Finally, you beheld as others’ selfishness, unbelief, ambition, fear and pride, destroyed Him who only loved them and sought their salvation.

He hung there, your boy, cruelly nailed, struggling for breath and faith. You helplessly watched life drain from His pure, loved body as His struggle deepened in pain, fever and weakness. You would have protected Him whom you loved in excruciating intensity, but you could never choose to betray the divine intention that entrusted Him to you. “Your will be done!” your being replied endlessly with His to the divine Father.

Have pity on the anguished helplessness issuing from inability to alleviate the sufferings of dear ones. Mother crucified of heart, as we suffer with our dear ones’ pain and grief, and our terrible loss, please obtain for us such courage, obedience and selflessness as your own and His, so that the highest will of divine love shall be fulfilled in each of our lives.

Mother have pity on that terrible grief, that chasm of loss, the emptiness that stretches before the bereaved as they embrace their dead (or behold their broken families) in their desolate hearts, as you have done. Let them find hope in Your dead son’s resurrection even when their hearts are still frozen with grief.

Yes, God chooses who he wants to save. He desires all to be saved, and chooses those who do not stubbornly refuse his graces.

OK, thanks for that. :confused:

Trishie, thank you so very much. I don’t know how much longer i am going to need to be reassured like this. But I do. It’s like the devil keeps trying to torment me with the thoughts that my sweet, precious son is in hell. I’m trying so hard to just focus that he is with God, dancing for Jesus and hanging out with his grandpa and his uncle, and other relatives. Doing everything he could never do here on earth with his 800 lb. body that only brought him pain, suffering and lonliness. He is set free and I hope he is soaring.

But, it is true, when God breathes life into us upon our creation, he immediately knows whether that person will end up in Hell or Heaven, so, it all depends on how you look at it.

Survey In Soteriology

Hello, I am a graduate student of theology and I’m producing a qualitative research paper in soteriology (study of religious doctrines of salvation). In adding to my research, I have produced a survey consisting of a series of unbiased and simple questions. This survey will not be a comparison of soteriology between various denominations, rather, the goal will be to obtain information on different individual beliefs of salvation within individual denominations. In this survey I will not ask for any names or personal information. However, I will ask some general questions about your faith and location by which anyone taking this survey is not required to answer. This survey will strive not to ask leading questions, nor will the survey be used as a platform to prosthelytize or argue any particular theology. This survey will not be used to embarrass or will single out any individuals responding to the survey as the collective results and analysis, not the data itself, will be published within the research. Please feel free to respond to this survey over open forum or email your responses to me. I thank you for your time and honesty. I believe this survey will help greatly in guiding the path of my research. God Bless

Instructions: Please write the answer (a-d) near each question of the survey. Thank you for your time.
Part I: Questions About You

  1. _____ What is your denomination?

    a. Catholic

    b. Protestant

    c. Evangelical

    d. Other

  2. ____ How often do you read the Bible?

    a. Frequently (daily to weekly)

    b. Often (weekly to monthly)

    c. Sometimes (monthly to only on special occasions)

    d. Never

  3. ____ Please Rate the knowledge of your faith

    a. Teacher or Elder

    b. Good understanding

    c. Little understanding

    d. No understanding

Part II: Questions of Faith

  1. ____ Does God Exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  2. ____ Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  3. ____ Is Jesus Christ a requirement for salvation?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  4. ____ Is Jesus Christ the only requirement for salvation?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  5. ____ Does heaven exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  6. ____ If yes, is heaven a permanent destination?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  7. ____ Does hell exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  8. ____ If yes, is hell a permanent destination?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  9. ____ Is salvation possible for those of a faith other than your own?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  10. ____ Is salvation possible for those of a non-Christian faith?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

  11. ____ Is salvation possible for those of no faith?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know

What an absolutely beautiful post! And surely Our Mother will hear all mothers crying for their boy. And just as surely will not Christ understand the mental anguish of such as your son, so scared, so alone in his fear. I have no doubt that our Lord consoles the suffering, and only in His loving arms, not in the dry pilpuls of our doctrinal debates.
All your counselors are wise in knowing the true nature of the mercy of our Jesus, and you must too, have faith in His mercy. For in your doubt you insult His love; and delay your grieving needlessly. You know your son was ill! Why do you for one minute think Jesus does not know this ? Keep praying for your son, having Masses said for any remission of Purgatory, and pray for the intercession of Our Mother Mary. I offer also my sad little prayers for your son so loved by you, yet so more loved by Jesus.

Petaro, thank you so much for your kind words and for responding to my anguish, my pain and my grief. You are so right that my constant needing reassurance about where my Gary is is delaying my grief. And I, too, feel like I’m casting doubt on the mercy and love of God having these doubts. And I don’t want to do that. I don’t mean to do that at all. Like I said, it’s like the devil is constantly putting these doubts in my mind. I keep praying they will go away and I will become more at peace, totally believing that my son is happy and free of his suffering here on earth and is in the loving arms of Jesus.

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