God only cares about the spiritual, not the temporal


#1

You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because
* you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23)
* you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
* not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
* women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal. Jesus Christ took care of all the spiritual punishments but said about the temporal punishments "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!!"

Scripture and life experience makes this abundantly clear.


#2

Great post! Lots of good things to think about for Lent. Blessings to you!


#3

I think you are incorrect. God does care about the temporal. He created us and when he rested he said, " this is good. " He loves all his creation and he intends for us to use his creation to obtain salvation. So he cares for both the spiritual and the material and temporal. Linus


#4

[quote="BobCatholic, post:1, topic:315068"]
You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because
* you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23)
* you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
* not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
* women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal. Jesus Christ took care of all the spiritual punishments but said about the temporal punishments "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!!"

Scripture and life experience makes this abundantly clear.

[/quote]

Bob, this is an old and tired refrain. We are to focus on the spiritual, yes, but God also cares about our physical needs. St. Francis of Assisi was living proof of that.


#5

That is a notion that can easily be taken too far, and will lead you down a dark and scrupulous path.

God does care about the temporal also.
Jesus healed the sick, He did not tell them to "enjoy their suffering".
Jesus fed the hungry, He did not tell them "fasting is good for the soul".
Jesus comforted many, He did not say "suffering builds character".

For those who are already on their journey of faith, suffering is necessary to promote wisdom and forbearance. Suffering for faith teaches.

Suffering for it's own sake is idiotic.


#6

[quote="BobCatholic, post:1, topic:315068"]
You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because
* you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23)
* you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
* not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
* women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal. Jesus Christ took care of all the spiritual punishments but said about the temporal punishments "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!!"

Scripture and life experience makes this abundantly clear.

[/quote]

Good point. I believe Jesus does place the spiritual in first place.

But then he also gave us the corporal works of mercy as well.
And if we do the corporal works, then that too will benefit us spiritually as well.

So we do the one and not neglect the other and benefit from both.

Just a thought.


#7

I guess I didn't think it through very far... Oops!:o


#8

I feel that way sometimes too.

For me, all I have to do is pick up a kitten or a puppy, or go to a garden or look deeply into the eyes of a daffodil and then I realize that it's just not true.

When I hold onto to a human baby's foot and marvel at how it got here and how amazing that tiny thing is I feel grateful to the woman who produced it, and to the fact that somehow, somewhere a sperm met an egg and voila! a whole new person is the result!

I call myself an agnostic, and I have animosity towards a lot of the bible esp Paul's pompous attitudes, but there's a lot of evidence around that things didn't just happen.


#9

Why would God have made the Garden of Eden so beautiful and full of everything if he didn't care about the temporal?

originally posted** by BobCatholic**
Jesus Christ took care of all the spiritual punishments but said about the temporal punishments "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!!"

Response.....

originally posted by fred conty
Good point. I believe Jesus does place the spiritual in first place.

But then he also gave us the corporal works of mercy as well.
And if we do the corporal works, then that too will benefit us spiritually as well.

So we do the one and not neglect the other and benefit from both.

Just a thought.

:thumbsup:


#10

[quote="BobCatholic, post:1, topic:315068"]
You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because
* you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23)
* you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
* not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
* women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal. Jesus Christ took care of all the spiritual punishments but said about the temporal punishments "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!!"

Scripture and life experience makes this abundantly clear.

[/quote]

Extremely confused misunderstanding, in my humble opinion. I have not read anywhere that Jesus said "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!" What translation of NT are YOU reading? Suffering on earth is not always punishment. There are reasons we do not understand, and will not until the day of general judgment or particular judgment (in some cases), for suffering. There are "victim souls" and there is always the possibility that a soul VOLUNTEERS to serve God by suffering (physical, mental, emotional) as reparation for the sins of others. NOWHERE is it said that anyone is "evil" for not carrying his/her cross or being unable to bear it, nowhere. False teaching.


#11

I think that those messages are more to trust God to the fullness and to do his will. If we are challenged, accept it with grace and learn from it. Without question, God provides for our needs, if he wouldn't care about the temporal, we wouldn't live in this beautiful world. If our soul needs purification, we will receive what we need to be purified, in the mid time, i can speaks for myself that my temporal need has always been provided. When i couldn't buy any food, someone without even knowing my situation, would give me her fruits from her lunch other friend would invite me for diner. I even remember that someone gave me a bag of grocery. All kind of things like this happened to me. I always was provided for my basic need, always.

Anyway, i love what a priest said to one of his mass about why God created us. To know him, to love him and to be with him in paradise. We cannot go in paradise if our soul isn't clean, so yes, we do have to embrace our challenges but also trust God for our temporal need.


#12

I don't think there is a simple answer there. Only a dismissal could be simple here and I don't count a dismissal as an answer.

Yes, I find it hard to put some things together too. But not because there are those verses you (the OP) quoted, there are others:

Psalm 91:

[11] For he hath given his angels charge over thee; to keep thee in all thy ways. [12] In their hands they shall bear thee up: lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

(Which is something Satan quoted on Jesus Christ in the temptation, in Luke 4.)

And then Matthew 10:

[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows.

Or Matthew 6:

[28] And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin. [29] But I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. [30] And if the grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, God doth so clothe: how much more you, O ye of little faith?

And then the entire content of the Lord's Prayer, which Pope Benedict analysed in Jesus of Nasareth, including the point about daily bread (the conclusion being that God will maintain us for the present but tomorrow we should leave in his hands, as if not even asking about it.)

To be honest, I find it very hard to reconcile all those verses about protection and defence with the verses of the need to suffer or with the biographies of saints and others. I know there are theological explanations but perhaps teaching about it could use a different approach or well, perhaps it should start at all. This isn't a subject normally talked about. There is normally talk either about the Providence or about the need to suffer, but not about the two in connection with each other. Perhaps Psalm 116 has part of the answer:

[15] Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

(Obviously, the servant who is dying is not a servant currently being shielded from all the bad things that could possibly happen to him. It is a servant who is being murdered. It makes no sense to try to claim otherwise. For the record, it does refer to God the Son who didn't spare His own life, and to God the Father who didn't spare His son that gruesome death and preceding torture, for our salvation. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that the majority of Christians are not going to die or suffer prosecution, rather lead a relatively peaceful life in accordance with the Gospel.)

As for the joy in suffering, that is another difficult subject. I would be inclined to believe that joy should not be connected with a love of pain or hardship but somehow be connected with the good that comes out of the suffering. But I'm an illiterate when it comes to theology, so I can't offer any sensible explanation on such an advanced subject.

[quote="ellzeena, post:10, topic:315068"]
Extremely confused misunderstanding, in my humble opinion. I have not read anywhere that Jesus said "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!" What translation of NT are YOU reading? Suffering on earth is not always punishment. There are reasons we do not understand, and will not until the day of general judgment or particular judgment (in some cases), for suffering. There are "victim souls" and there is always the possibility that a soul VOLUNTEERS to serve God by suffering (physical, mental, emotional) as reparation for the sins of others. NOWHERE is it said that anyone is "evil" for not carrying his/her cross or being unable to bear it, nowhere. False teaching.

[/quote]

Nope. It is it not a false teaching.

Luke 14:

[27] And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It doesn't say you're evil, it say you can't be a Christian. It concerns your cross, i.e. the cross given to you, not the necessity to go and take the crosses of other people or actively reach for a cross larger than the one you already have, but I think in the end it probably can be said that you're evil when you reject your cross, after all. Which doesn't rely on volunteering for that cross.

On the other hand, martyrdom may have to do with volunteering, that is an individual ready to give his own life in witness. But I'm not sure that nobody was ever surprised when the opportunity came to him. That is hard to say or verify. The part about volunteering is a somewhat comfortable way of avoiding the problem by making people think that bad things will only happen to them if they volunteer for them after reaching some mysterious high level of perfection. But the Bible is pretty clear on that bad things happen to people both good and bad, not necessarily volunteers.


#13

this is not true. God cares about our temporal happiness too. the correct title for this thread would be "God cares MORE about the spiritual than the temporal".

but he blesses his children's earthly lives sometimes too. remember, God is not only loving, but kind too. he doesnt like to see people suffer, heck, that is the reason he came down and died for us, beacsue he didnt want to see us suffer eternally. so he doesnt like that we suffer temporally either.

the problem with people on here is that they dont understand the purpose of suffering, suffreing is evil in itself. it is the result of sin. God hates suffering because it is a result of sin. suffering is only good when it is use das a means to a greater end.

its as nietzsche puts it:
“Man, as the animal that is most courageous, most accustomed to suffering, does not negate suffering as such: he wants it, even seeks it out, provided one shows him some meaning in it, some wherefore of suffering.”


#14

Grace & Peace!

I would also mention that I think we misunderstand the cross we are to bear if we think of it exclusively or even principally in terms of stuff we don't like about ourselves that we need to deal with or endure; or stuff that's happening in our lives that we don't like that we need to deal with or endure; or pain we experience that's inconvenient and/or unasked-for but unavoidable so we need to deal with it or endure it.

The cross was the sign of Roman "justice" in action, the instrument by which the Empire put to death notorious criminals or dissidents. The context of Jesus' statement that we are to take up our cross and follow him suggests 2 things: 1) in following him, we will be outcast, the powers of the world will be against us and will seek to undo us for the sake of "justice" and a host of other lovely-sounding things that the powers of the world appear to value very dearly; 2) when Jesus bore his cross, he bore it on our behalf--that is, when we were suffering under the oppression of the Empire of Death, he loved us so much that he stood in our place and bore for all the oppression of that Empire and broke it. He exhausted the power of Death and in that place in which God was widely held to be absent (the place of the criminal and of the outcast, the unwanted, the victim, the scapegoat, the "deviant") he constructed a home even in the face of what appeared to be his own desolation. He made the desert flow with water from his own wounded side.

It is this second sense of carrying the cross that I want to emphasize most here. We, too, are called to occupy the space of death on behalf of others who are placed by the powers of this world in that space of death. We are called to fearlessly enter the desert to become the fountains of living water that grace is enabling us to become. As the Eucharist is broken and poured out for the world, we are also called to break and to pour ourselves out completely for the world--as Augustine writes concerning the Eucharist: Behold what you are! Be what you behold! The burden of the cross we bear is the emptying of self which enables us to bear the burden of others in love, for love, with love even and especially in those places where love appears to be most absent.

That's how I understand Christ's saying that we must carrying our cross and follow him.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!


#15

No, no false dichotomy need be read into these verses. There have been several such beliefs dismissed as heresies - dualism, gnosticism, marcionism, manicheaism . . . remember in Genesis God created the whole world and looked at and saw it as good. Peace! :)

God's name is on the original title of all the physical real estate in the universe, not the Devil's! Likewise all that is good in the spiritual dimension as well, is good because of God. God is Love.


#16

[quote="Linusthe2nd, post:3, topic:315068"]
God does care about the temporal.

[/quote]

If he did, suffering would be nonexistent.

[quote="Lochias, post:4, topic:315068"]
God also cares about our physical needs.

[/quote]

Hard to see when he keeps saying "no" to physical needs.

St. Francis of Assisi was living proof of that.

How will he help me? He's already crossed the finish line.

[quote="Glomung, post:5, topic:315068"]

God does care about the temporal also.
Jesus healed the sick, He did not tell them to "enjoy their suffering".
Jesus fed the hungry, He did not tell them "fasting is good for the soul".
Jesus comforted many, He did not say "suffering builds character".

[/quote]

That was when it was his will for them to be healed, fed, comforted, etc.

If it is not his will, then he doesn't care about temporal needs.

[quote="fred_conty, post:6, topic:315068"]

But then he also gave us the corporal works of mercy as well.
And if we do the corporal works, then that too will benefit us spiritually as well.

[/quote]

Yeah, we have to do it. He doesn't. He doesn't care.

So we do the one and not neglect the other and benefit from both.

I don't benefit from giving. It reduces money that's getting increasingly harder to get.

[quote="ellzeena, post:10, topic:315068"]
Extremely confused misunderstanding, in my humble opinion. I have not read anywhere that Jesus said "this is your cross, carry it, with joy or else you are evil!"

[/quote]

Matthew 10:38 along with 1 Peter 4:13 are very clear on this.

[quote="Chantal25, post:11, topic:315068"]
Without question, God provides for our needs,

[/quote]

If it is his will. If it is not, then he doesn't care.

If our soul needs purification

Then God should have created us perfect instead of imperfect needing of purification. Otherwise, he is holding us responsible for Adam and Eve's sin.

[quote="Deo_Volente, post:14, topic:315068"]

2) when Jesus bore his cross, he bore it on our behalf

[/quote]

He did that. For the spiritual things only. The temporal things, nope.

When the Jews were led out of Egypt, He provided everything they needed to survive until they got to the Promised Land. That was the old covenant.

The new covenant, well, God took care of all the spiritual things we need to get to the Promised Land, but the temporal, we have no such promise.


#17

People have tried to talk to you here about this kind of stuff, Bob; you’re just determined not to listen. You’re skirting dangerously close to outright falsehoods. You asked how St. Francis can help you; have you tried asking for his intercession lately?


#18

[quote="Lochias, post:17, topic:315068"]
You asked how St. Francis can help you; have you tried asking for his intercession lately?

[/quote]

Can he overrule God's will? The answer is no.

If it is God's will that I suffer, no amount of praying will undo that. His intercession won't help one iota.


#19

[quote="BobCatholic, post:18, topic:315068"]
Can he overrule God's will? The answer is no.

If it is God's will that I suffer, no amount of praying will undo that. His intercession won't help one iota.

[/quote]

If you are in physical pain get help from doctors.
If you have emotional pain due to the loss of a loved one understand that you'll get used to the pain and you'll stop focusing on it, eventually, but that may take a year.

If you are in spiritual pain, that's the easiest one to get rid of, make amends, ask forgiveness and move on.

Dwelling on our past sins is a form of narcissisium


#20

[quote="BobCatholic, post:18, topic:315068"]
Can he overrule God's will? The answer is no.

If it is God's will that I suffer, no amount of praying will undo that. His intercession won't help one iota.

[/quote]

How fortuitous that you are apparently an omnipotent being that knows the mind of God.

"I KNOW He'll say no, so why bother?"

It seems to me as though you're wallowing in the falsest of prides. Read about St. Francis, ask for his prayers for you, and stop acting as though you already know what the outcome will be.

With that, I'm done.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.