God or the Devil


#1

Who Benefits:

**1) **In 1863 Pope Pius IX gave an indulgence of fifty days to all who make the sacred sign of the cross.
How come prior to 1969 a priest made over 40 signs of the cross while saying mass. Now after 1969 the priest signs himself twice plus if we include the triple cross at the Gospel we have 3 times max!
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who hates the sign of the cross?

**2) **How come after 1969, the prayers of exorcism have been taken out of the Sacrament of Baptism? Do we not believe in the devil anymore?
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would desire that child to enter into life unprotected?

**3) **How come after 1969, the seven orders to priesthood, namely Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte, Sub Deacon, Deacon and Priest, were reduced to 3, namely Sub Deacon, Deacon and Priest?
Why would the Catholic Church all of a sudden leave out the power of exorcism? Are we to believe that the devil doesn’t exist?
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would not have man freed from his possession?

**4) **Why were the prayers to St Michael the Archangel that were composed by Pope Leo XIII, in order to defend the Church from the attacks of hell, simply done away with? These were to be said after every low mass. Is the Church no longer attacked by hell?Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would not have you pray to St Michael?

**5) **How come prior to 1969 Catholics were required to fast and abstain more than 50 times a year in order to do penance for their sins, but now that has been reduced to only two days out of the year, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday?
Luke 13:3 “ I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.”
Apoc 9:21 “Neither did they penance from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their fornication, nor from their thefts.”
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who is it that desires you not to do penance?

These are only a few of the multitude of changes thrust upon the unsuspecting Catholic people since the 1960’s. How can anyone of any intelligence believe that these changes came from Almighty God!

Stop, Think, and Defend your Faith!

Do not ignore what St. Paul and the Apostles warned us of.

Gal 2:4 But because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privately to spy our liberty, which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into servitude.

II Corinthians 11:13-14 “For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”

I Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit manifestly says, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils.”

Hebrews 13:9 “Be not led away with various and strange doctrines.”

St John says, speaking of priest who were deceiving the Christians at that time:
I John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us.“


#2

I have always thought about these things, and I am dissapointed with the simplifications which offer a “watered-down” version of Catholic discipline. The faith needs to be restored to its former glory and turn more attention to the ever-present threats of the devil.


#3

[quote=toppro77]Who Benefits:

1) In 1863 Pope Pius IX gave an indulgence of fifty days to all who make the sacred sign of the cross.
How come prior to 1969 a priest made over 40 signs of the cross while saying mass. Now after 1969 the priest signs himself twice plus if we include the triple cross at the Gospel we have 3 times max!
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who hates the sign of the cross?

2) How come after 1969, the prayers of exorcism have been taken out of the Sacrament of Baptism? Do we not believe in the devil anymore?
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would desire that child to enter into life unprotected?

3) How come after 1969, the seven orders to priesthood, namely Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte, Sub Deacon, Deacon and Priest, were reduced to 3, namely Sub Deacon, Deacon and Priest?
[/quote]

Because the Church wanted to return to the three orders sanctioned by Scripture and Tradition. The subdiaconate is no longer an order except among Catholics who use the “TLM” - so the third order is that of bishop.

Why would the Catholic Church all of a sudden leave out the power of exorcism? Are we to believe that the devil doesn’t exist?
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would not have man freed from his possession?

4) Why were the prayers to St Michael the Archangel that were composed by Pope Leo XIII, in order to defend the Church from the attacks of hell, simply done away with? These were to be said after every low mass. Is the Church no longer attacked by hell?Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who would not have you pray to St Michael?

Because they are devotions, and the Mass should be the supreme devotion; it should not be obscured by less important prayers. To suppose that the Church has to have them, would be sheer superstition: she got by without them for 1800 years - she can do so again. The Church does not have to ask for protection, because God knows her needs even when she does not. Does God act only when we ask Him to ? :slight_smile: Of course not.

5) How come prior to 1969 Catholics were required to fast and abstain more than 50 times a year in order to do penance for their sins, but now that has been reduced to only two days out of the year, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday?
Luke 13:3 “ I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.”
Apoc 9:21 “Neither did they penance from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their fornication, nor from their thefts.”
Ask yourself my dear friend, who benefits by this change, God or the devil?
Who is it that desires you not to do penance?

No one is stopping you do all the penance you want :slight_smile: The obligation to do so remains: but now, it is no longer confined to a few days; which might give the impression that one had to do penance only every so often: it is something we are free to do constantly.

A life which requires an obligation as its motive, is not much of a life :frowning: - that is legalism; not Christianity. Christianity is far more demanding than a religion based on being told what to do all the time.

God “benefits” by nothing - for He needs nothing :slight_smile: It is we who are needy ##

These are only a few of the multitude of changes thrust upon the unsuspecting Catholic people since the 1960’s. How can anyone of any intelligence believe that these changes came from Almighty God!

Stop, Think, and Defend your Faith!

Do not ignore what St. Paul and the Apostles warned us of.

Gal 2:4 But because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privately to spy our liberty, which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into servitude.

II Corinthians 11:13-14 “For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”

I Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit manifestly says, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils.”

Hebrews 13:9 “Be not led away with various and strange doctrines.”

St John says, speaking of priest who were deceiving the Christians at that time:
I John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us.“

It is not a good idea to spread suspicion and fear :frowning:


#4

[quote=Fidei Defensor]The faith needs to be restored to its former glory and turn more attention to the ever-present threats of the devil.
[/quote]

Kind of off the subject, sorry to throw in a tangent but it reminded me…

At the time of BVI election, I watched CNN and one of the roving reporters came across a young priest whom he was questioning about the priest’s opinion of the election. This young guy was so great and eloquent about our faith, and was so loyal to the pope and the Church that he got cheers from the crowd when the interview was over.
Anyways, the priest had mentioned that he had spoken with Fr. Amorth, the chief exorcist, and Fr. Amorth had mentioned that he had already invoked the intercession of JPII in conducting exorcisms. The young priest said that Fr. Amorth described that at the invocation of JPII the demons got very scared and angry.

Back to topic I guess…I do have to admit that I have some misgivings about the state of worship post Vatican II. I am trying to establish a home for us and my children that incorporates a true Catholic culture. I’m finding it’s hard to get information about traditional Catholic customs and as a convert it’s like learning a new language. Seems like a lot has been lost.
I also think a lot about knowing them by their fruits. Vocations, mass attendance, catechesis, is all down since VII. However, how are we to know it’s demonic work within the Church or if it’s just the furious assault of secular humanism in the 20th century? I still believe that the gates will not prevail, and your posts toppro77 seem to be a bit gnostic (with all due respect).
Sorry to ramble!!! :o


#5

thank you so much ‘gottle of geer’, those have been burning questions that I had never been able to find an answer to. Comprehensively put to rest, thanks to your well reasoned arguments. Well done!:slight_smile:


#6

WHO BENEFITS?

When the Original Poster raises a dozen or more complicated issues in one thread? The God of order or the lord of confusion?

Does the OP believe himself to be acting on behalf of the Truth? Then why dilute it by splashing it so widely about? Does this benefit Truth or confusion?

My friend, toppro, it costs nothing to post on this forum. You don’t need to economize by combining 20 posts into one. Bits and bytes are cheap. Focus your questions and open ten or twenty threads. Your questions will be answered, because there are good answers to each and every single one of your questions.


#7

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## Because the Church wanted to return to the three orders sanctioned by Scripture and Tradition. The subdiaconate is no longer an order except among Catholics who use the “TLM” - so the third order is that of bishop. ##

Because they are devotions, and the Mass should be the supreme devotion; it should not be obscured by less important prayers. To suppose that the Church has to have them, would be sheer superstition: she got by without them for 1800 years - she can do so again. The Church does not have to ask for protection, because God knows her needs even when she does not. Does God act only when we ask Him to ? :slight_smile: Of course not.

No one is stopping you do all the penance you want :slight_smile: The obligation to do so remains: but now, it is no longer confined to a few days; which might give the impression that one had to do penance only every so often: it is something we are free to do constantly.

A life which requires an obligation as its motive, is not much of a life :frowning: - that is legalism; not Christianity. Christianity is far more demanding than a religion based on being told what to do all the time.

God “benefits” by nothing - for He needs nothing :slight_smile: It is we who are needy ##

It is not a good idea to spread suspicion and fear :frowning:

[/quote]

Toppro is right. Your ‘arguments’ are mere casuistry.


#8

Hi toppro77:

Who benefits? Obviously it is the devil who benefits. That is precisely why all these changes were introduced, to water down and ultimately destroy the Church.

:blessyou:


#9

[quote=romano]Who benefits? Obviously it is the devil who benefits. That is precisely why all these changes were introduced, to water down and ultimately destroy the Church.
[/quote]

Ha, ha, and I thought you were Catholic! Imagine that! The Bride of Christ will NEVER be destroyed. The Bridegroom will see to that!


#10

[quote=DavidFilmer]Ha, ha, and I thought you were Catholic! Imagine that! The Bride of Christ will NEVER be destroyed. The Bridegroom will see to that!
[/quote]

I said that was the aim of those who introduced them. I didn’t say they would succeed. And please let me decide what I am.


#11

[quote=romano]And please let me decide what I am.
[/quote]

Only God makes that decision.


#12

Hi toppro77:

The world is filled with casuists busily ‘proving’ that black is white. Keep up the good work!

:thumbsup:


#13

[quote=DavidFilmer]Only God makes that decision.
[/quote]

So tell me, when did you become God?


#14

[quote=romano]So tell me, when did you become God?
[/quote]

Huh???


#15

:thumbsup: Very good post toppro77 … certainly makes one think.

[quote=DavidFilmer]Only God makes that decision.
[/quote]

Actually, God gave us a free will so that WE may decide – He doesn’t force anything on us.


#16

[quote=Sir Knight]Actually, God gave us a free will so that WE may decide – He doesn’t force anything on us.
[/quote]

True, of course, Sir Knight! God calls - it is up to US to respond.


#17

Wow I like some of the remarks and Im not too crazy about other ones…lol

Too bad Im at work right now and don’t have time to respond to Gottle of Geer’s remarks but I will, when I get home. I think he’s been drinking! :tsktsk:


#18

Dear Gottle of Geer

First I would like to say, lay off the beer. It’s messing with your mind…lol

Now to your comments:

You claim that the seven orders were done away with because the church wished to return to the three original orders. Might I ask you to refer to the Infallible Council of Trent, which all are bound to adhere to because of it’s infallible nature. Session XXIII Chapter II and I quote:

“The following orders, and the ministrations proper to each one of them, are known to have been in use; to wit, those of Sub Deacon, Acolyte, Exorcist, Lector, and Doorkeeper (Porter)…for the Sub Deaconship is classed among the greater orders by the Fathers and sacred councils, wherin also we very often read of the inferior orders.”

Now Canon II of that infallible council says:

“**If anyone says **that , besides the priesthood, there are not in the Catholic Church other orders, both greater and minor, by which, as by certain steps, advance is made unto the priesthood; let him be anathema.”

Since we know that the three orders your talking about are of the greater orders, anyone who defends the abolition of the minor orders, as the infallible council says, is condemned to hell.

Next
In regards the prayers to St Michael. A holy pope by the name of Pope Leo XIII was given a vision of Christ and the devil talking after mass one day. The devil claimed he could destroy Christ’s Church. Christ gave him 100 years to attempt to destroy it if he could. This happened in the year 1884 and to think that hell would not use every bit of that 100 years would prove to be pretty naive.

He immediately composed the prayer to St Michael at that time, and this prayer was said religiously after low mass for about 85 years before being tossed aside like so many Holy Catholic traditions. This undoubtedly gives hell a free reign to do what ever destruction it chooses.

If you think for one minute that the Church was not under attack at that time, or at the present time you should read his encyclical titled Humanum Genus April 20, 1884

Art 2. States “The Freemasonsare planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly.”

Art 7. “**The sect of Freemasons **grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power.”

Art10. **Their ultimate purpose is **the overthrow of the whole religious and political order of the world , and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas,

Art 12. **It is against the Church that the rage and attack **of the enemies are principally directed.

Art 14. Indeed, with them it is lawful to attack with impunity the very foundations of the Catholic religion, in speech, in writing, and in teaching; and even the rights of the Church are not spared, and the offices with which it is divinely invested are not safe.

The average Catholic has no idea what has been going on for the last 200 plus years.

I don’t make this stuff up people. I investigate! I suggest you do the same.

to continue with your comments

Now about penance. You claim "we are free to do it as much as we want now."
It has always been that way, but Holy Mother Church knows human nature and most will do nothing if they are not obliged to do so.

Then you say “A life which requires an obligation as its motive, is not much of a life - that is legalism”

Perhaps you would chastise Our Lord who said in St Matt. 11:29 “**Take up my yoke **upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. For **my yoke is sweet **and **my burden **light.”

Since the Church is our Mother, it is Her obligation to guide us and lead us on the path to holiness. Everything the Church demanded of us was for that purpose.

Now we are to believe as modern man, we have intelligence and dignity that far surpasses the saints of old. We have no need of instruction or obligation because we are free thinkers and modernists who are far above such things.

Finally you say “it is not good to spread suspicion and fear”

Perhaps then you should contact St Paul and the Apostles and tell them this. It is there words I have quoted, not mine.


#19

Gottle of Geer, you wrote this. “# Because they are devotions, and the Mass should be the supreme devotion; it should not be obscured by less important prayers. To suppose that the Church has to have them, would be sheer superstition: she got by without them for 1800 years - she can do so again. The Church does not have to ask for protection, because God knows her needs even when she does not. Does God act only when we ask Him to ? :slight_smile: Of course not. ##”


Using your method of reasoning, since God already knows what both the Church and us individuals need then there is NO NEED FOR ANY PRAYER! I wonder why that in our Bible and in our Tradition thare are hundreds of admonitions for us to pray. You would have us not pray. I dont understand why you would say that.

At the beginning of Mass doesn’t the Priest pray for the Bishop and the Pope? You say God already knows of their needs so why pray for them.

In The Benediction for may years, The" Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel" to protect the people of the world from the snares of Satan will be eliminated vigerously by you; for you say that prayer written by a Pope IS SUPERSTITIOUS. Really?

I do believe that you would sterilize all the vocal worship of Holy Mother Church. Is it possible that now you want to back up and restate you position? Your references to suprstition make me wonder if you are superstitious about the True Presence or Holy Water.

I think you had a statement about exorcism. You denied and need for an excorcism. So to me you are really saying that SATAN DOESNT EXIST. You dont think the Bible is truth. Did you know that Satan/Devil is 58 times on the OT and even more in the nT. And you say that Satan is not in the world. Ask an old priest if Satan exists?


#20

To Exporter

:amen: Brother, you are right on track! :clapping:


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