God sacrificing Himself?


#1

Catholics believe that God, in the form of Jesus died on the cross for us that our sins could be forgiven. Forgiven by whom? Himself? I cannot understand how God’s death in any way forgave our sins. Almost sounds like He committed suicide to do so. The sins still existed. He could have avoided all that by simply forgiving us. He seems to have sacrificed His son to a terrible death to satisfy Himself and thereby to forgive us. His actions do not seem that of a rational being. What am I missing here?


#2

Well, let’s start from the top. What is the price of sin?


#3

Respectfully opinion only.
What is the price of sin? :thinking:
Spiritual death within, not physical death, maybe?

Adam and Eve did not literally physically die when they committed sin, but our Heavenly Father physically removes them from his Garden ( Kingdom) within. Why?

Written, Cannot serve to Master’s be faithful to one and not the other?
Written?..A house divided cannot stand?
Written?>>A little leaven spoils the whole batch?
Written? Kingdom of Righteousness & Peace
Written? Lawlessones ?

1st Commandment…Love me with your whole heart soul and mind…

Not only physical separation from our Heavenly Father like Cain but also spiritual separation ( personal relationship ended, deeply painful? ) when our Heavenly Father left Cain to his own making nor heard Cain’s cry out unto him, is this true?

Thus maybe why it is repeated so many many times through out the whole Bible…Return to Me and I will return to you, is it not?

Is it not written also thou? I choose whom I will?
For only our heavenly Father knows the… pure intentions of ones heart, soul and mind, would that be true and correct?

Adam and Eve, then…Cain murdered his own brother did he not?

Our Heavenly Father tells Cain, is it not written?>>> your brother’s blood cries out unto me from the ground…right? So tells us, our Heavenly Father…hears our prayers right?

As written…All Life is sacred unto to me in the blood, destroy it not?

What is the price of sin?

Spiritual death within… not physical death our witnesses are … both Adam, Eve ( continued to live physically but were removed from our Heavenly Father’s House, Kingdom, Garden, right?

Another teaching is Cain who committed a sin that …greatly offended our Heavenly Father, yet Cain continue’s to live physically.

… but Our Heavenly Father’s punishment was even … more severe…on Cain then Adam and Eve was it not?>>> God not only left Cain to his own physical life, his own making never return to (offspring’s? etc?), but our Heavenly Father … Spiritually removed and separated himself from Cain also, did he not? Nor did our Heavenly Father hear or answer Cain’s cries out to him nor forgave him all throughout his physical life, but not so with Adam and Eve off springs our Heavenly Father choose Noah son of Adam and Eve etc… right? Stand to be corrected want to learn and attain understanding. :thinking::slightly_smiling_face:

There was also 2 Cain’s was there not to get confused, right?

So is there maybe a …Spiritual separation and a physically separation from our Heavenly Father… for the price of our sins… maybe?

Remembering also their offspring’s throughout generations our Heavenly Father choose whom he willed in serving him he loved and placed his Spirit within them like…Noah? Moses? Prophets? Woman? Kings? High Priest? Priest? etc…

I enjoy CAF I do not take the bible literal either, just enjoy pondering on theses questions and discussions is all…Peace :heartpulse:


#4

Sin separates us from God

When Satan with his wiles managed to deceive Eve, and in turn Adam to disobedience, sin entered into their nature. This sin came between them and God like a veil, separating them from the source of life. Spiritually speaking, they were dead in their trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1 Sin had entered the world, which was cursed, and all living creatures also had to die a physical death.

The sin that entered Adam and Eve’s nature was passed on to all their descendants. This “sin in the flesh Sin is anything that goes against God’s will and His laws. To commit sin is to transgress or disobey these laws. The lust to sin dwells in human nature. In other words, it is contaminated and motivated by the sinful tendencies that dwell in all people as a result of the fall into sin and disobedience in the garden of Eden. This…more” is not guilt for committed sins, but a strong inclination to do our own will rather than God’s. If we follow this inclination, for example when we are tempted, we commit sin To commit sin is to consciously do something that you know goes against God’s will and His laws. It is when you are tempted by the lusts and desires that dwell in you and you consciously agree to act on that temptation, knowing full well that it is displeasing to God. This “act on” can occur in word, deed, or…more. To help His people stay on the right path, God gave them laws that spelled out His will for them.

Unfortunately, people were incredibly weak and not one person ever managed to keep pure from sin. In fact, even the best of them usually sinned daily in thought, word and deed. In other words, all people were guilty, and Satan could use this as a letter of accusation against them, demanding that they should die. Romans 5:12 In the temple, the symbolic house of God on earth, a large, thick veil hung in front of the Holiest of Holies, symbolizing the sin in the flesh Sin is anything that goes against God’s will and His laws. To commit sin is to transgress or disobey these laws. The lust to sin dwells in human nature. In other words, it is contaminated and motivated by the sinful tendencies that dwell in all people as a result of the fall into sin and disobedience in the garden of Eden. This… more.that separated people from God. Anyone passing that veil would die instantly, as no sin could stand in the presence of God.


#5

Forgiveness through sacrifice

God, in His longsuffering, gave people a chance: by sacrificing an animal without blemish, the people could get forgiveness. Once a year the high priest could enter the Holiest of Holies, carrying the blood of the sacrifice, and obtain atonement for the people. Through the spilling of the blood of an innocent sacrifice, the debt of sin could be paid. Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22

However, the blood of animals couldn’t take away the root cause of the problem, the sin in human nature. After their sins were forgiven, the people continued to sin. To commit sin is to consciously do something that you know goes against God’s will. This can be in word, deed, or even thought. James 1.14-15… meaning that they had to come back and sacrifice again, year after year. Not even the high priest could help them; he himself was a sinner, and the sacrifice was for himself just as much as for the people. Hebrews 10:1.4

God hated this frightful state of affairs. His longing was to have communion with people and to save them. He looked for someone who could lead the people out of the vicious circle of sinning and forgiveness. But, despite the fact that there were righteous, God-fearing people throughout history, none of them were blameless, and none of them could “stand in the gap” between God and mankind. So then God sent His own Son to carry out this greatest work in history. Ezekiel 22:30 Isaiah 41:28; Isaiah 50:16; Isaiah 63:5; John 3:16-17)

Jesus: a human being in every sense of the word

Jesus was the Son of God, but He willingly “emptied Himself” and became the “Son of Man” – a human being in every sense of the word, with the same human nature as all of us. This meant that Jesus was tempted as we are. But Jesus was also born of God’s Spirit, and this Spirit accompanied Him His whole life, giving Him the strength to carry out the task He was sent for. (Luke 1:30-35; Philippians 2:5-8; Isaiah 61:1-3)

“And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:8. It was as a man that Jesus had to learn obedience, because, being a man, He had His own self-will, or sin in the flesh, and was tempted. There He learned to deny Himself, “take up His cross daily” and put that sin to death. The result was that He never sinned. (Hebrews 2:18; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 5:7-8)

When Jesus spoke out against sin and against the hypocrisy of the religious rulers of the time, He spoke with authority and conviction. But because the death over sin was taking place in His inner man The outer man is our physical body while we are here on the earth. Our inner man is our everlasting spirit and soul. (Romans 7:22; 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16; Matthew 10:28)… More, hidden from people’s sight, He was misunderstood by nearly all His contemporaries. So much so, that in the end, He was arrested and crucified. The pure, righteous, blameless Man died as a criminal, punished for sins He had never committed. Why?


#6

Atonement – and a way to follow

Being blameless, the only human being in all history who was completely pure and without sin, Jesus was the only one who could “stand in the gap,” the only one on whom Satan had no claim. He was the only one who had not deserved death, either physical or spiritual. But, fulfilling the purpose for which He had come to earth, Jesus voluntarily offered Himself. He was crucified as the ultimate, blameless sacrifice. He died as the Lamb of God, the atonement for all mankind. He bore the punishment of all our sins, and died, the just for the unjust. (Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18) Not only did He die a physical death, but He even experienced separation from God while He was hanging on the cross Jesus was physically crucified on the cross at Calvary. Though blameless, He took upon Himself the punishment for sin, which was death, so He could pay our debts and forgive us our sin if we are willing to believe in Him and follow Him the Apostle Paul wrote: “I have been crucified with Christ…” (Galatians 2:20) This is a metaphorical… More. (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34) Through this sacrifice, all those who believe in Him are able to obtain forgiveness.

Jesus’ death on the cross When the cross is mentioned in the Bible, it most often does not refer to a physical wooden cross, except when specifically describing Jesus’ crucifixion on Calvary. “Taking up your cross” refers to the metaphorical cross that Jesus’ speaks about in Luke 9:23. “Taking up your cross” is the act of denying the sinful thoughts that come up in you… More on Calvary, though absolutely one of the most momentous and powerful events ever on earth, is actually only part of the Christian story. By the strength of the Spirit that was with Him from birth, Jesus had “suffered in the flesh” by denying it and not giving in to the inclination to sin that He had in His nature as a human being. In this way the sin in His flesh was condemned and He “put it to death,” “crucifying” the lusts and desires The desires that we experience that go against God’s will. In other words, a desire for anything sinful. See James 1:14. Also called “sin in the flesh.” Although the expression “youthful lusts” is often thought of in connection with sinful sexual desires, lusts include anything that go against what is good and right in God’s eyes. (2 Timothy 2:22.; Galatians… More. So though He was tempted, He never sinned. (Hebrews 2:18; Hebrews 4:16) REplay I havei more to say


#7

But God demonstrates His own love towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us

Romans 5:8

I and the Father are One

John 10:30

For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ our Lord

Romans 6:23

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me

John 14:6

And according to the Law one may almost say all things are cleansed with blood and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

Hebrews 9:22

And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood He entered the holy place once for all having obtained eternal redemption

Hebrews 9:12

If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9

Jesus died through one of the most gruesome forms of execution ever invented -crucifixion. Jesus was also beaten,mocked,and forsaken by God. Jesus could of easily just called upon legions of angels to save Him but no He didn’t. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for the penalty for our sins because Jesus was sinless unlike us who are sinners. We deserved to be on the cross. As said in Amazing Grace- Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. (The Amazing Grace is Christ’s love for us)


#8

Imagine being trapped in a burning building, a passing stranger sees you and rescues you. But later he dies from his burns, you then find out he did lots of charitable work in his community.

There is nothing rational about going into a burning building, but some remarkable people will risk their life for others. If you survived the burning building, you might be inspired to carry on the good work, to honour the man who rescued you.

In a similar kind of way, Jesus forgave us our sins and he is asking us to do the same, and forgive those who sin against us. Jesus could just say to us, we should forgive our neighbour, but that would not mean anything. But when Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father, he is showing the example we should follow.


#9

You’ve received a lot of lengthy answers. Let me try to give you some concise ideas to think about…

You asked about ‘forgiveness’ and why it’s necessary. Sin – regardless of what kind – ultimately is a sin against our Creator. One way of looking at it is that there’s a ‘debt’ that’s created by sin, a kind of “I sinned against you, God, and I owe you one” dynamic. That ‘debt’, we would say, is bigger than we can repay.

Now, there are Christians out there who will say that what Jesus did was simple debt repayment – that God demanded death, and Jesus stood in, paid the price, and God did the calculations and said, “ok… that’s enough. Your punishment is complete.”

Dr David Anders, from the EWTN program “Called to Communion”, likes to say that, if that were true, it would be horrible! It would mean that God punishes the innocent (i.e., ‘Jesus’) and lets the guilty go scot-free (i.e., ‘us’). Anders points out that this isn’t what leaders who are just do – it’s what tyrants do!

The Catholic position you’ll encounter actually says something a bit different: Jesus came to earth to teach us how to live and how to attain salvation. And, seeing our predicament, Jesus gave up his human life so that we might gain eternal life. God, recognizing the depth of love in such an act of self-giving that He dissolved the debt. In other words, it wasn’t an act of God sacrificing His Son; it was His Son giving of himself for our sake.

It wasn’t a business transaction; it was the loving act of one family member giving all for another family member in need. That’s highly rational!

Hope that helps!


#10

Never hurts to keep it simple. Due to original sin, there was broken relationship between man and God that man could not fix. Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross fixed it.


#11

Our Lord did not have to die in order to forgive us, but he freely wanted to because sacrifice is the greatest way to show love, and by this love he made us one or “at-one-d” us with God who is love. The best way to understand this from a literal perspective is to read Lady Julian of Norwich’s book Showings of Divine Love where the true meaning of all this was revealed. It is very surprising what it actually is. This is why it’s called the paschal mystery. Another very good source is Bishop’s Sheen’s speech “The Meaning of the Mass”

Sacrifice without love is pain. Pain with love is sacrifice. Pain without love is misery. Love without pain is heaven. Love with pain is purgatory. Pain without love is hell. -Bishop Sheen


#12

All you meaningful people – I have things I want to express, several things about meaningful areas you have expressed. I’ve printed off some of your postings. I’m posting this one because I don’t want this topic to be closed before I can share (14 days). All your postings are essentially and deeply involved with the Incarnation, the Second Divine Person become a real and complete human person … and God’s Infinite Love. Bear with me, please, give me a few days. I’m coming back. I’m John. Email= Trinity5635@aol.com


#13

That was brilliant!


#14

Atonement did not forgive our personal sins but made it possible that through the sacrament of baptism to remove inherited original sin and any personal sins. Seven sacraments were instituted in total.

Catechism

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin. 397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.” 398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant. 399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant. 400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles. 401

615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” 443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin ", when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. 444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father. 445

616 It is love “to the end” 446 that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. 447 Now “the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.” 448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.


#15

Greetings All – I’d like to go right to the point. What I’m briefly writing here is definitely Church teaching and perhaps, to some, shocking. This was resolved centuries ago by the Nicene Creed and again in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. Is Jesus Christ GOD? Yes, clearly. Did Jesus Christ God. Offer Himself willingly, freely, to Suffer and DIE according to the direction of the Father? YES. WHO DIED? GOD DIED!
There are questions of detail, of course, that attend this basic FACT … and a number of them have been touched upon above. At the moment I have no interest in repeating them. But back to the basic question of this whole Topic> DID GOD HIMSELF SACRIFICE HIMSELF IN DEATH FOR OUR SALVATION? YES, GOD HIMSELF IN GOD’S OWN HUMAN NATURE TRULY DIED IN SACRIFICE FOR OUR SALVATION! There’s the fact. GOD WAS TORTURED AND DIED FOR US. This is an essential fact and without it there is no Christianity. This FACT demands FAITH. John J Farren Trinity5635@aol.com


#17

The idea that Jesus crucifixion and death was a way to appease God’s anger toward mankind is flawed theology, and certainly not part of Franciscan or Carmelite Theology

God became man in Jesus Christ to show His mercy and to share in the human condition as a form of solidarity with humans.

God did not send Jesus to change His own mind about man, but to change the hearts and minds of men about God.

Jim


#18

According to whom?


#19

Acoording to God.

39- Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 26

Here Jesus prayed Father to be saved. Jesus were informed about case. Jesus did wish not being tortured or crucifixed. That verse prove that Jesus(Son of God or God?, ofcourse according to Christian’s doctrine) did not wish sacrifice Himself.

Jesus were informed about that possible case. So Jesus prophecied about some apostles who would betrayaled Jesus. After crucifixion Jesus never said “I was crucifixed and rose from death”. Because the man was crucifixed were another and God tell this in Qur’an:

157- And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. An-Nisa(4)


#20

No – I wouldn’t say that Jesus didn’t want His salvific death, but rather, that He was quite naturally anxious at the torture and crucifixion. Kind of like how a pregnant woman really wants to have a child, but is anxious about the painful process of giving birth.

In any case, your claims were that (1) Jesus wasn’t God and (2) Jesus wasn’t crucified. Neither of your responses here demonstrate either of those claims.

OK, so… for me as a Christian, why should I believe something written hundreds of years after Jesus’ life on earth? Especially when it contradicts what Christians had already been saying for hundreds of years? Especially when it contradicts what Jesus Himself had said?


#21

What you call “something” is revelation from God.

“…And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption…” from above verse!


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