God's Love is "Ridiculous"


#1

On another forum, I was trying to tell a recent (and highly terrified) Muslim convert that he need not worry about God sending him to Hell because he should, instead be focusing on God’s Love and not the lines in Qur’an which condemns a person to Hell for breathing wrong. :rolleyes: I was hoping this might open doors for him and me to discuss what God’s Love entailed, a facet he seemed to need, but before I was able to go that far, another Muslim said

*[3:31] Say: if ye do love God, follow me: God will love you and forgive your sins: for God is most forgiving, most merciful … Say: obey God and his apostle: but if they turn back, God loveth not those who reject faith.

God’s feeling ,such as love, are eternal … and since God knows who are going to heaven and who is going to abide forever in hell … it’s ridiculous to say God loves those people.*

I was shocked! I had no clue that Muslims rejected the notion of God’s Love! :eek: And other Muslims soon followed suit, going so far as to cite stories from the Old Testament, specifically how God sent plagues and epidemics upon the Egyptian people. And this got me to wondering, If God loves all people then why did He send plagues upon the Egyptians, and why did God kill the Pharoah’s first born, and other similar OT incidents?


#2

God is Love is a Christian idea through and through. It would have no meaning to a Muslim.


#3

There is a beautiful story behind these plagues. I know, it’s hard to see the beautiful story when all you see is the Egyptians suffering.

These plagues led up to the creation of the Passover festival, which is a prophecy of Jesus’ death.

I suggest you do some research on Passover and the Sacrificial Lamb, and how it correlates to the Crucifixion and the Sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus. Then you’ll see that the suffering of the Egyptians is to our benefit. Isaiah 53:10 tells us that the descendents of the suffering will live long.

We have a lot to be thankful for, and not be blaming God for the suffering. After all, he suffered himself. But non-christians won’t believe this, because they deny that Jesus Christ is God.


#4

First of all, God loves each person perfectly no matter how they respond to his mercy.

Secondly, the plagues were earthly punishment, not eternal punishment. The Egyptians had held the Israelites in slavery and misery for over 400 years, at least 10 - 11 generations. If God had wanted to exact precise justice for this he could have kept the Egyptians in bondage and misery for just as long. Instead he visited justice upon just one generation.

What happened to the souls of those who died we cannot say, but they were receiving, although in a limited way, what they had dished out when they murdered the male babies of the Israelites that almost claimed the life of Moses–a prophet of God whom even the Muslims honor.


#5

Right, but this definitely seems to conform to what Muslims say of God: that God is Just and Merciful, but not Loving. No doubt the Egyptians received their “just desserts,” but were these punishments enacted against them out of Love? or, as Charlie stated above, because God loved another?


#6

I’m shocked this thread hasn’t gotten more responses. This is a prime opportunity for apologetics!


#7

Please give us time. Islam is something that isn’t as well-known as the various denominations of Protestantism.

I can tell you myself that Muslims don’t believe in God’s love. They would consider God’s love to be a “fluffy” concept.

They don’t believe they are saved by their proclamation that they submit themselves to God (the Shahada). However, this doesn’t mean they gain Heaven. They gain that through their prayers, obedience to laws and Muhammad, and works.They have to ask God’s forgiveness for their sins during their prayers. Regardless of asking for this forgiveness, beyond the West you’ll find other Muslims punish sins of other Muslims. For instance, if a woman committed adultery.

One of the greatest challenges of apologetics to Muslims is the fact that they believe the Qur’an is God’s replacement for the “corrupted Bible”. According to them, the Qur’an is infallible whereas the Bible is not. When you compare the two books, you do find some differences. For instance, that it wasn’t Isaac that was being sacrifced, but Ishmael; Mary had birth-pains until she ate dates and had given birth to Jesus on a street under a palm tree and doesn’t give mention of Joseph; etc.

I think if we are to witness to Muslims, we will have to change our strategies. We cannot use the same ones for them that we use for Protestants and Atheists. If anything here is wrong, you’re welcome to correct me. Its been a while since I’ve done Islamic research.


#8

You might be interested in Our_Father’s_Plan

Program 4, “Isreal in Egypt” will explain things better than I could. God chose Israel, not because He loved them more, but their patriarch, Abraham and his sons, were willing to follow the One True God in an age of paganism.

Yes, the Egyptians were punished for their crimes against the Hebrews (remember when Moses was a baby & Pharoah had all the Hebrew babies killed?) The Hebrews suffered too (400 years in slavery, children murdered). God is Just but He is merciful. Out of that came the Passover, which is a forshadowing of Christ’s sacrifice that would reconcile all men to the Father. And **that **is Love. That God wouldn’t just wipe away the world and start again or that He wouldn’t just let us all go on paving our own paths to hell, but provide a savior for us to be reconciled to Him.

Fathers dicipline their children, it doesn’t mean they don’t love them. If anything it shows how much they love them not to let them do whatever they want and go the wrong way. I don’t think that muslims see God as a Father. And so the concept of God diciplining people out of love is lost on them.

God is the creator of life, it is His to give and to take. I think the muslims would agree with that.


#9

I am a muslim. The above is totally incorrect. Islam firmly believes that a person who believes in the Shahada is going to heaven. If he had done some sins he will be either forgiven by God if the sin is against God or he will be punished temporarily for them in hell if the sin was against man .

But a person who believes in the shahada alone is bound to heaven for etrnity even of he doesnt do any single good deed other wise.

That is a mainstream muslim belief.

thanks

meedo


#10

Hello,

Who told you that Muslim dont believe that God disciplinces his worshippers because he loves them?

If you contend that God is Just but Merciful, where that disagree with Islam?

meedo


#11

Muslims actually believe that anyone who is a Muslim will get to heaven regardless of the kind of life they live. That’s what is even worse.


#12

People invent their own Islam and condemn it. Exactly where did you get this big secret of yours ? where is your proof that muslims believe that ?


#13

What an easy way to get to heaven! :rolleyes: Muhammad sure knew how to keep Muslims believing in Islam! :smiley:


#14

I’ve heard Muslims saying it, but of course they weren’t experts or anything. Do you disagree with this?

Anyway, didn’t you yourself just state yourself that any Muslim who “firmly believes in the Shahada” (which is the very definition of a Muslim anyway) will get to heaven regardless of any other sins they’ve committed?


#15

The love of God is about as ridiculous as it can get :thumbsup:

Deo Gratious :thumbsup:


#16

It seems to me that the OP is less concerned with Islam’s view of God itself then with the Judeo-Christian view of God. The question is usually put as:

If God is good why does he allow such suffering. Sometimes, the question is asked, why does he allow evil. As the OP pointed out, God not only allowed suffering in some instances in the Old Testament but he positively will it.

The entire book of Job in the Old Testament is dedicated to this question. Another Old Testament book, Song of Songs, is dedicated to the Love Affair between God and His chosen people.

Now, if God is not purely loving and good, this does not immediately prove Islam is right. Many people who grapple with this question decide on Deism. A Deist believes that God exists but A Deist does not have to believe He loves us and or that God is necessarily entirely good.

For the Christian point of view, here is one essay on The Problem of Evil.

I’ll quote the paragraph on Job, “Third, who’s to say we have to know all God’s reasons? Who ever promised us all the answers? Animals can’t understand much about us; why should we be able to understand everything about God? The obvious point of the Book of Job, the world’s greatest exploration of the problem of evil, is that we just don’t know what God is up to. What a hard lesson to learn: Lesson One, that we are ignorant, that we are infants! No wonder Socrates was declared by the Delphic Oracle to be the wisest man in the world. He interpreted that declaration to mean that he alone knew that he did not have wisdom, and that was true wisdom for man.”


#17

Sorry my friend, there is no such thing as a brief stop-off in Hell:

Luke 16:23-29 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.


#18

Thank you for the correction. Its been forever since I’ve done the research and my memory doesn’t reconstruct memories very well.


#19

Meedo, here is an X Nigerian Muslim now Christian who writes on the relative differences between Islam/Christianity and Quran/Bible. It is a free book/PDF: Islam Reviewed ellisskolfield.com/pdf/IslamReviewed.pdf

Here is a book regarding Islam in prophecy that is also free: The False Prophet
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

I know that some Muslims consider the numbers 666 (and 19) to prove the perfection of the Quran, per modern day miracle:
66619.org/thequran.htm
66619.org/
universalunity.org/6.html

Additionally the mathematics of prophecy place Islam squarely in the center of eschatology.
Muslims may be headed for the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind:

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: {kingdom of Islam, geographically Iraq, Iran, Syria the leopard-bear-lion beast (Daniel’s successive lion, bear, leopard beasts)}
for it is the number of a man; {Mohammed}
and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them {Muslims most specifically, but also atheists and other non-believers, etc.}
was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast {kingdom of Islam}
and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Meedo, here are some testimonials of Muslims that have come to know the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:
exmuslim.com/


#20

If God loves all people then why did He send plagues upon the Egyptians, and why did God kill the Pharoah’s first born, and other similar OT incidents?

I read somewhere (perhaps in one of Scott Hahn’s books) that the plagues that were visited upon the Egyptians all had to do with the various gods that they worshipped. The blood in the water was to show that the Nile was not a god that could protect the people. They worshipped the sun, so darkness covered the land. All the plagues had to do with the various gods that the Egyptians worshipped. The reason Moses wanted to go out into the desert to worship was because God demanded that the Hebrews sacrifice animals that were worshipped by the Egyptians—cows, sheep and goats.

Also when God said He would harden Pharoah’s heart, it wasn’t because God was not going to permit Pharoah to change his mind about the Hebrews. It was because God was not going to make it easier for Pharoah to trust that the Hebrews were only going to worship.

The more Pharoah resisted God’s plan, the harder his heart became. Unfortunately, that is also true for us when we resist God’s plan for us. Only the love of God poured out in Christ iis really able to change hearts and put us on the right track.


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