Gods plan and free choice

sorry for the grammar and run on sentence.

so often when someone dies people will say something along the lines of it must be part of gods plan, i believe god dose have a plan for us but what i am wondering if are free will can change that plan.
i got thinking this when a friend died in a car crash, someone said it was in gods plan. it got me thinking if we have free will, we might not do what god wants us to do, for example my friend was not wearing his seat belt he choice not to where it, it might have bean gods pan to do more but because his choices interrupted it .

People’s free will can mess up God’s plans for us all the time, look at what happened with Adam & Eve in the garden. The choices we make affect God’s plan for us all the time, that’s why the world is in the shape it’s in. People die before their time all the time. Just because someone dies doesn’t mean it was God’s plan or will.

I believe Ravi Zacharias had the best explanation of God’s plan and free choice in his book “Jesus among other Gods.”

He said -

*I once visited a place where beautiful saris are made. The sari is the long, flowing garmet worn by indian women, usually about six yards of fabric. Wedding sari’s are a work of art-rich in gold and silver threads, dazzling with colors.

The place I was visiting was said to make the best wedding saris in the world. I expected to see elaborate machines spinning mind boggling designs. I was wrong! Each sari was made individually by a father and son team. The father sat above on a platform two or three feet higher than the son, surrounded by several spools of thread-some dark, some shinning. the son did just one thing. At a nod from his father, he would move a guide from one side to the other and back again. The father would gather some threads in his fingers, nod once more, and the son would move the guide again. This would be repeated for hundreds of hours, until a magnificant pattern emerged.

The son had the easy task-just to move at the fathers nod. All along, the father had the design in his mind. It was his job to bring the right threads together.

The more I reflect on my own life and the lives of others, I am fascinated to see the design God has for each one of us if we just respond to His nod.*

Thank you for reading
Josh

I don’t think God has a plan for us. I think God provides us with resources and guidance and then leaves the decisions up to us. Sometimes when tragedy strikes, people say, ‘It was God’s plan,’ or ‘Maybe it was meant to happen so that some good will come out of it.’

Not to be cynical, but I don’t believe these things. Like I said, God provides the resources and guidance. We know what to do, it’s up to us to do it. God didn’t want the Sandy Hook tragedy to occur, and he didn’t let it happen to convince people to work together to end violence. These things happen, and it’s up to us to use our free will to live by the Gospel, along with God’s help, to make the right choices.

:thumbsup:

i believe that the life we live is gods plan for us and the interactions it causes in others. even the life of hitler could well fit into gods plan since none of us know what gods ultimate idea is. there is no way i can believe that god does not how we are going to turn out. and everything we do affects others (also in the plan) so if i sin god knows i will and therefore it has to be part of his plan and thus blameless. thats why there is no hell.

I agree.

It is hard to fathom, for some people, that we are at the mercy of random acts of other people and our own choices.

God wants you to be with him forever. He doesn’t care if you drive a Chevy or a Ford.

It is my understanding that there is a fixed day and time that God has decreed for our death, and nothing can hinder His Will. When it is our time to go, it is our time to go; and nothing can stop our death. God bless you.

I would be interested to know where you came up with this idea.

Hi PaulinVA

Actually, I believe it to be the opposite. I believe your view that we are at the mercy of random acts to be the view that is easy to fathom (even the non-believers adopt this view), and the view of Divine Providence to be hard to fathom.

I believe the view of Divine Providence to be the correct one, that nothing happens for no reason. I also believe that when it comes to Jesus’ Passion, this view will become more clear and more easy to fathom for those struggling with it.

Jesus to St. Faustina

Why are you afraid? Do you think that I will not have enough omnipotence to support you? (Diary, 527)

Do not fear anything; nothing will happen to you against My will. (Diary, 541)

Fear nothing; all difficulties will serve for the fulfillment of My will. (Diary, 624)

My child, make the resolution never to rely on people. Entrust yourself completely to My will saying, “Not as I want, but according to Your will, O God, let it be done unto me.” These words, spoken from the depths of one‟s heart, can raise a soul to the summit of sanctity in a short time. In such a soul I delight. Such a soul gives Me glory. Such a soul fills heaven with the fragrance of her virtue. But understand that the strength by which you bear sufferings comes from frequent Communions. So approach this fountain of mercy often, to draw with the vessel of trust whatever you need. (Diary, 1487)

I believe the difficulty for people with the view of ‘Divine Providence’ is that we cannot understand it and we never will until we are on the other side (thus we need faith ‘Jesus I Trust In You’). It’s like one of those sewing patterns where from the back it looks like a jumbled mess of random colored strings with no rhyme or reason, but from the front it all comes together to form a beautiful picture. As the strings, all we see is the jumbled mess, whereas God sees the picture.

It’s like the Matrix I believe, the blue pill and the red pill, if you take the blue pill, you can wake up and just go back to living as if you at the mercy of chance or random acts with no rhyme or reason, whereas, take the red pill and u’ll see just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I hope this has helped.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

I agree.

God Bless

Josh

I believe you are mistaken, I believe God does not will evil, but that he does allow it and through it His will is fulfilled (classic example is Jesus’ Passion) I believe that we are responsible and accountable for our own actions, and I believe there absolutely is a Hell and that the Devil does exist.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

So, explain free will in light of what you believe.

A man goes drinking and then gets behind the wheel of his car. He runs into and kills someone. He loses his job, he goes to jail, he loses his family, and he has killed someone. You think that is Divine Providence and not just bad decision making?

I believe it’s both free will and Divine Providence.

Joseph is sold into slavery, is thrown in jail, becomes second to the pharaoh, saves God’s chosen people from famine.

Moses is left out to die, is taken in by the Pharaoh’s daughter, free’s God’s chosen people from slavery.

I believe there are countless examples of our free will and God’s Divine Providence in the scriptures and I believe meditation on Jesus’ Passion will reveal much light on this.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Wait, I thought you said it was Divine Providence and not free will?

Joseph is sold into slavery, is thrown in jail, becomes second to the pharaoh, saves God’s chosen people from famine.

Moses is left out to die, is taken in by the Pharaoh’s daughter, free’s God’s chosen people from slavery.

I believe there are countless examples of our free will and God’s Divine Providence in the scriptures and I believe meditation on Jesus’ Passion will reveal much light on this.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

So,you say, now, that it’s a combination of free will and Divine Providence and I’ll understand your position if I just pray more?

Riiight.

I don’t believe I did, and I apologise if that’s what my previous posts may have insinuated (I will try and adjust accordingly for future posts).

Yes.

Not only prayer, but meditation on Jesus’ Passion. I believe prayer will also greatly help though.

I believe the following booklet will help greatly in regards of Jesus’ Passion.

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf (1998 IMPRIMATUR: Archbishop of Cochabamba, Mons. René Fernández Apaza)

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

From my spiritual reading. I read the very best books written by the Saints and the best spiritual writers. It is true that nothing can hinder God’s Will–nothing at all, for when God wills something, it happens–He need only will something and it happens; when He wills to take us from this life we leave it, when He wills that we survive some accident or sickness we survive it. God bless you.

I totally agree that God can make anything He wants happen. That is not the question. The question is - does He, on a daily basis, interfere with life and the choices people make with free will?

I don’t believe He intervenes in our lives on a daily basis. We have free will. We exercise it. We interact with other people exercising their free will. Sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad things happen.

i still dont believe in hell, there is no good reason god would allow a person to be born and that this person’s plan is to sin and go to hell. i know i have free will but i also believe that what i do is gods plan. does anyone know what gods ultimate plan is?? god created lucifer as an archangel and im sure he knew he was going to be cast from heaven , are you trying to say that he didnt see this coming.
take this idea. you have a child ,you raise as best you can, teach it all you know and how to behave. but because of free will he doesnt obey you and does what he wants , . should you destroy it???i couldnt

But all the good things and bad things that happen to us have as their First Cause God, with all His creatures acting as secondary causes/agents. God bless you.

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