God's righteousness

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

This is one of the main passages that I have difficulties with Roman Catholicism as being the true Christian Faith. Please give me you understanding of the above passage according to your Roman Catholic Faith. It seems you can almost substitute the word Israelites for Roman Catholics in the passage above. I believe God’s righteousness is an alien righteousness, found outside of ourselves. This righteousness provided by God is the sole basis why God declares a sinner justified and is able to permanently adopt his enemy into His faimily.

God’s righteousness found below:

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. - Rom 4

We are purified from sin according to scriptures.

1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Our sins are taken away.

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Our sins are cleared away.

Psa 50:3 Our God comes, he does not keep silence, before him is a devouring fire, round about him a mighty tempest.

Psa 102:12 But thou, O LORD, art enthroned for ever; thy name endures to all generations.

Isa 43:25 "I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Justification is also a future process.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 3:20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The scriptures belows tell us of Abraham’s justifications.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves."
Gen 12:4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
Jas 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

Gen 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, "Here am I."
Gen 22:2 He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori’ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
Gen 22:3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the ***; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here am I, my son.” He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"
Gen 22:8 Abraham said, “God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, "Here am I."
Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place The LORD will provide; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies,
Gen 22:18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

We must become partakers of the divine nature.

2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

**Maybe it would be easier to approach the subject using the words of Protestants. Protestants are quick to ask, “are you saved”? We believe we are saved, we are being saved and we hope to be saved. **

Past

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ (by whose grace you are saved)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our own works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world:

Titus 3:5 Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.

Present

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Future

Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel shall save it.

Act 15:11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.

Rom 5:9 Christ died for us. Much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son: much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the season, that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 9:28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many. The second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

Will our faith be enough or is more required?

Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Jas 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Part II

I’ve seen Protestants deny many times that works are required but scriptures support the opposite.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

Rom 2:2 For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and patience and longsuffering? Knowest thou not that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Php 2:13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Scriptures show us there is no assurance of salvation.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Rom 8:16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.
Rom 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

2Ti 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Scriptures tell us we will be judged according to our deeds.

Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

2Co 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.

Col 3:24 Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For he that doth wrong shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully. And there is no respect of persons with God.

Thanks Prodigal for your postings. However, you have not even attempted to interpret the passage that I posted in the OP. Please share your understanding of God’s righteousness, and let me know if you think if the righteousness of God is an alien righteousness that is sufficient for you. As you may know, this is the topic that makes us hold to mutually exclusive gospels. Here is the passage again:

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

Why pull one passage out that can be misinterpreted?

To read a verse or passage in context, one must read the whole chapter. To read a chapter in context, one must read the whole book. To read the whole book in context, one must read the whole New Testament. To read the New Testament in context, one must read the Old Testament. The living Church Christ created has been doing this since it was created over 2000 years ago.

Christ is truth, the wholeness of truth. To pull out a part of the truth is less than the truth.

Many of the scriptures that I provided, were written by the same author of the passage (4 verses) you pulled out. To reject him is to reject Christ, to reject Christ is to reject Him who sent Christ:

Luk 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I absolutely agree with prodigal son1. Furthermore it matters not, what someones’ personal opinion is of any one verse. St. Peter tells us we are not the interpreter of God’s word we are the student, the hearer. The Church God created and established on earth, the Church, which wrote the NT has the only authority on earth, given Her by God to interpret HIS words. The Church Christ said he would build, exclusively speaks with God’s voice. You should go to the author, whose voice can be heard through The Church, if you want the truth.
*
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10*

To my lay eye, I think the verse is simple. No you may not make any substitutions.

The Author is simply expressing the desire God has that HIS chosen race, His children be saved. But alas, free will being what it is, they have rejected the righteousness of God which is the Christ. Although they are zealous for God, because they did not (do not) recognize (have knowledge of) the Savior and obviously they did not (do not) submit to His authority which comes directly from God and which He gave to his One Church, on Earth, the Church Militant. The last line you cite is simply stating that Christ is the “end of the law.” In otherwords the perfect fullfillment of the old coventant and the new law, the fullfillment is with His One Church where righeousness may be found for all who believe. IMO

I don’t frankly know what you mean by “alien righteousness.” And, I suspect you wish to read into this verse so it means something that supports some pre-conceived belief you hold. Something which denies the truth of Catholicism, no doubt.

How do you interpret this verse?

Reformed,

What does it mean to be reformed protestant? Is that what fundamentalism is? Is it like saying Fundamentalist Methodist? Or fundamentalist Baptist? Did you reform the protestant churches which thought they were reforming the catholic church? So is it like being twice reformed catholic?

Why did “protesant” need to be reformed?

I thought the protestants found the bible which had been kept from the people for 1500 years and by reading for themselves they rediscovered the true religion of Jesus. Or four or five different versions of it, anyway. If they discovered the true religion of Jesus, then why did it need to be reformed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries?

“The righteousness / justice of God” . . .

The Council of Trent identifies the justice of God as the “single formal cause of justification” — the “justice of God” is *what *justification is. Trent clarifies that this justice is “not that by which Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just”.

In other words, this justice is that which He freely gives us — the created gift “by which He makes us just.”

This justice is to be distinguished from the justice “by which God Himself is just”, which is God Himself. Since God *is *His attributes, God *is *therefore His own justice.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, while the justice “by which God Himself is just” is distinct from the justice “by which He makes us just”, the former is the “true exemplar” of the latter. The latter, it seems to me, is called the “righteousness *of *God” because it comes *from *God *as His created gift *to us and this gift is “modeled” after God’s own justice, which *is *God Himself.

Now here’s a fascinating point:

As I understand the Catholic position, justification is ontological. That is, justification effects a radical “re-creation” of our act of existing. God *declares *us just, and so we *are *just – God *calls *us sons of God and so we are (cf. 1 John 3:1).

For this reason, in my opinion, the “righteousness of God” — the formal cause of justification — can’t be the justice “by which God Himself is just”. Since “the justice by which God Himself is just” is God Himself, then if justification is an ontological transformation then justification would mean transformation into God Himself — not by participation or “being made partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4) — but essentially. In other words, this would entail pantheism.

Therefore, “the righteousness that comes from God . . . God’s righteousness”, which we are to know and that to which we ought to submit, (Cf. Romans 10) is God’s created gift of justice/righteousness freely given to us.

Additional Scripture about the alien righteousness provided by God::wink:

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ

Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. - Phil 3

The Ministry of Reconciliation

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3

More to consider:

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2170_The_Sufficiency_of_Christs_Obedience_in_His_Life_and_Death/

[size=2]God holds not man as his 'enemy.'
Man is born in innocence.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

In their lifetime men and women will sin, and this is
addressed by the Judaic yetzers.

torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/class12.html

reen12

[/size]

Reformed,

What is the point you are trying to make? Or, what is your question?

You state:

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Are you telling us that you are ready to submit to the authority of the Catholic Church?

Do you accept that the “washing of regeneration” is Baptism and that it is through this Sacrament of initiation that one’s soul is renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that it is the ordinary means whereby we receive this Grace of justification and become HIS heirs?

Are you just here to pontificate or are you willing to answer questions?

Reformed, did you really come here to inquire about Roman Catholic teaching?

Or did you come here rather to expound your own?

I thought Rome taught the doctrine of originial sin? Please study Romans 5. I know Augustine believed in original sin… and so did King David.

Psalm 51:5 NIV
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him - Rom 4

Psalm 22:9 NIV
Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother’s breast.

Psalm 22:10 NIV
From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Psalm 58:3 NIV
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Psalm 71:6 NIV
From birth I have relied on you; you brought me forth from my mother’s womb. I will ever praise you.

The point I’m trying to make is that many professing Christians (Protestants and Catholics alike), do not know God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own righteousness. If we do not submit to God’s righteousness, do we really know God as one of his adopted children? The verses in Romans 10 is sobering. We can also substitute the word Israelites for professing Christians to get additional insight. Submitting to God’s righteousness has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism or any particular Protestant denomination. What is the righteousness that comes from God?

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

A sola scripturist telling us to “substitute” words from scripture?

Rev 22:18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Rom 11:34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
Rom 11:35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.

So Catholicism or any other denomination has anything to do with truth? We are all a part of His truth, no matter the differences of doctrines due to private interpretations of scriptures? Jesus was of many truths, no matter how conflicting? Jesus didn’t teach and pray for one fold with one shepard or that we be perfectly one?

When did you come to know the mind of the Lord? When did you become His counselor? What was the gift you gave to Him that he might repay you?

I am comfortable with the one living Church Christ created and promised even the gates of hell would not prevail against it, as well as promised to be with His Church until the consummation of the world. I’m sorry you can’t believe that and continue to pray for you.

Dear Prodigal,

Please share with us your undestanding of the following two questions:

  1. What is the righteousness that comes from God?

  2. What is the gospel of God’s grace?

If you ignore these two questions, I assume you do not know the answers. These are essential questions to any professing Christians. The Roman Catholic Church cannot save you.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1:16-17

Your friend in Christ,

Reformed :slight_smile:

Answering questions with questions still.

I have provided these answers to you on numerous threads and you quit responding. I provided a scriptural basis for Catholic justification on this thread with as few of my comments as possible. I felt this might be the best approach since you are a firm sola scripturist. Instead of responding you ask my interpretation of a single verse of scripture.

Now you have the audacity to state if I don’t answer your questions, which you’ve added a new one since the start of this thread, I don’t know. Simply go one of the threads you started concerning scriptures, that you changed to Peter was married! then changed it to Grace, and see my responses to the faith and grace issues you keep bringing up, but fail to address.

To make it easy on you, I’ll post my responses below (I am only posting my responses in the discussion.):

To the last quote from my response above, you stated you didn’t have time to respond and directed me to a website to search for myself to see what you believed.

Throughout the discussion of faith and grace, you failed to respond with the exception of pushing the website. It really appears you have an agenda as opposed to Christians sharing the word and their love of Christ. So far in what you call sharing the word and love of Christ you reject everything a Catholic says and have even gone so far as posting things that were not true. Remember when you stated that I said the Church was above Christ? I challenged you to produce one statement where I said anything like that. You ignored the challenge.

What is your agenda?

I still think you miss the central answer. What is the gospel of God’s grace? What is God’s righteousness. I did read your answers above. I could be wrong, but you have deep religious affection for the Roman Catholic Church as compared to what matters most. I believe every Christian develops religious idols of the heart, and there is a battle for our religious affections. Loving Reformed Theology and the Roman Catholic Church are not necessarily the same things as loving God.

My agenda: point people to Jesus Christ… growing each one of us in deeper affection and love for God and our fellow man as Chrisitans through the grace and power of God. Therefore, we as Christians mortify our flesh and idols of the heart, learning together to live for the glory of God.

Would you compare my affection for Christ’s created living Church to your affection of the Bible. Is the Bible your religious idol of the heart?

The big difference is, my affection of the Church Christ created includes scriptures.

Can you show me any writings from Christ? Can you show me any writings Christ had scribed?

I can certainly show His Church which includes all His teachings and authority given by Him.

My agenda: point people to Jesus Christ… growing each one of us in deeper affection and love for God and our fellow man as Chrisitans through the grace and power of God. Therefore, we as Christians mortify our flesh and idols of the heart, learning together to live for the glory of God.

Catholics know Christ. What are you pointing at?

I’ve explained it to you before, but everything Protestants have came from the Catholic Church. There was only one Church for 1500 years. When men decided to reform Christ’s Church, those teachings and scriptures they took to start a reformed religion came from the one Church. We live together and we love our separated brethren. We pray for them often as we do all people of the world.

How many times have I posted for your benefit that Christ created and taught one Church? The Church is working hard to unify us as one again.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.

Sharing the Gospel and love of God does not include repeated bashings of the Catholic Church. In fact your ad hominem worded statements widens the differences between us. How do you see doing this as learning to live together for the Glory of God? Is it necessary to keep attacking the Church Christ created to talk about God’s love, mercy and grace? Is it supposed to increase all our faiths?

Please respond to my repeated question of how you reconcile the one body of Christ in thousands of denominations based on different interpertations of scriptures and all with different doctrines?

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