Good Friday? Is it Church dogma?


#1

I’m just wondering if the Crucifixion day is cut in stone by the Church, or does it allow for speculation?


#2

No, the tone was already cut (sorry, couldn’t pass that uyp…)

What are you speculating about?


#3

Rising on the third day is cut in stone.

What type of speculation?


#4

[quote=otm]No, the tone was already cut (sorry, couldn’t pass that uyp…)

What are you speculating about?
[/quote]

Would you consider a peech cherapist?

Well my friend, I am thinking that (among other things) that there is no way three nights and three days can fit a Friday crucifixion. However Thursday would fit perfectly, don’t you think?


#5

[quote=Pug]Rising on the third day is cut in stone.

What type of speculation?
[/quote]

I agree that rising on the third day is cut in stone, but how is it possible if the crucifixion was on friday to full fill Jesus’ prophecy of three days and three nights?


#6

You’re probably thinking of John 2:19:

“Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

However, there are many references in the Gospels to the fact that Jesus will rise “on the third day.” Here’s a search of the online Douay-Rheims Bible:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=third+day&b=drb&t=2

In the Creeds we say that Jesus rose on the “third day.” Good Friday is the first day.

First and third days of what, precisely? His death, I suppose.


#7

[quote=Scullinius]You’re probably thinking of John 2:19:

“Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

However, there are many references in the Gospels to the fact that Jesus will rise “on the third day.” Here’s a search of the online Douay-Rheims Bible:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=third+day&b=drb&t=2

In the Creeds we say that Jesus rose on the “third day.” Good Friday is the first day.

First and third days of what, precisely? His death, I suppose.
[/quote]

Absolutely, Jesus rose on the third day, and He did say in Matthew 12:40 “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”

Thursday would fit quite nicely. OK here it is…
Thursday crucifixion, Thursday night
Friday, Friday nighjt
Saturday, Saturday night
Ressurection on Sunday morning.


#8

Perhaps you are being frustrated by biblical time schemes. They counted differently than us. You can find years counted equally strangely. It seems to be sufficient to count as part of a day (or part of a year). So if something covers part of Fri and all Sat and part of Sun, then it would be enough to be three days in biblical parlance.

It wasn’t the Sabbath when he died, then the Sabbath passed (it was over at sunset on Saturday, remember) and then another day started. That allows for three days, with some darkness in between (to be night).

I think years work with the same oddness. A year and a day can be two years, or some such. I’d have to look it up.


#9

[quote=Pug]Perhaps you are being frustrated by biblical time schemes. They counted differently than us. You can find years counted equally strangely. It seems to be sufficient to count as part of a day (or part of a year). So if something covers part of Fri and all Sat and part of Sun, then it would be enough to be three days in biblical parlance.

It wasn’t the Sabbath when he died, then the Sabbath passed (it was over at sunset on Saturday, remember) and then another day started. That allows for three days, with some darkness in between (to be night).

I think years work with the same oddness. A year and a day can be two years, or some such. I’d have to look it up.
[/quote]

I realize how the Jews counted time (partial day is counted for the full day). But for now let us not confuse things. We’ll get into that later.

Even in Jesus’ time, a day was in the light, and the night was dark. When Jesus mentioned three days and three nights, that’s exactly what it was. And yes, Jesus did not die on the Sabbath, they had to remove Him from the cross before the sunset began the next day or the Sabbath. But when was the Sabbath?


#10

Catholic 2,

Remember it was the Romans who crucified Christ. It was a Roman Soldier who noticed Christ was risen that Sunday morning.

The Romans did not count time like we do today. Lets count from 3 PM Sunday to 3AM Tuesday. Howmany days passed.
A. From 3PM Sunday to midnight is ONE DAY.
B. From midnight Monday to midnight Tuesday IS ONE DAY.
C. From Midnight Tuesday to 3AM Wed. is ONE DAY.

So the Romans would say that THREE DAYS had passed.


So considering Jesus’ time being dead. From 3PM Friday to Friday midnight is ONE DAY. From midnight Saturday to midnight Sunday is ONE DAY. From midnight Sunday to 5AM Sunday is ONE DAY.
So the Romans would say Jesus had been dead for THREE DAYS.


The Romans were aware of malaria. They called “Tertiary Mal Aria” that because they noticed high fever each 48 hours. But they counted it as three days!


#11

[quote=Exporter]Catholic 2,

Remember it was the Romans who crucified Christ. It was a Roman Soldier who noticed Christ was risen that Sunday morning.

The Romans did not count time like we do today. Lets count from 3 PM Sunday to 3AM Tuesday. Howmany days passed.
A. From 3PM Sunday to midnight is ONE DAY.
B. From midnight Monday to midnight Tuesday IS ONE DAY.
C. From Midnight Tuesday to 3AM Wed. is ONE DAY.

So the Romans would say that THREE DAYS had passed.


So considering Jesus’ time being dead. From 3PM Friday to Friday midnight is ONE DAY. From midnight Saturday to midnight Sunday is ONE DAY. From midnight Sunday to 5AM Sunday is ONE DAY.
So the Romans would say Jesus had been dead for THREE DAYS.


The Romans were aware of malaria. They called “Tertiary Mal Aria” that because they noticed high fever each 48 hours. But they counted it as three days!
[/quote]

I have to differ your saying that the Roman Guards at the tomb were the first to see the Ressurection when in fact they did not see it at all. Matthew 28 describes the scene. The ladies were at the tomb when an angel appeared. The guards were so struck with fear that they became like dead men. Actually Jesus had already risen from the dead when the angels got there to roll back the stone. He would shortly talk to Mary Magdalene just outside the tomb, so no one saw the actual ressurection.

As to the reckoning of Roman time that you described… Matthew was written in Greek following the Hebrew foundation not the Roman. Matthew may have originally been written in Aramaic!

In any case, we’re talking about three days and three nights, and I am sure that a day is one with the sun shining, and the night is when it is not.


#12

Ah, I had missed that it was the three nights in the comparison to Jonah in the bible that was the trouble, rather than the Church dogma of “on the third day”. I’ll answer your other question. The Sabbath started in the evening on Friday and ended in the evening on Saturday. It was after the day of preparation and before the first day of the week, to the best of my memory.

If you really want an entire full three days and a full three nights, then Wednesday is your day. You are going for Thursday, so that is some of ThursDay, then Thurs night, then Friday and night, then Saturday and some of Sat night. So you accept partial counts, but require three evenings of some sort.

It has been said by some scholars that three days and three nights is idiomatic enough and would be understood to be allowable to mean three days (or parts).

Do you feel that Thursday for the crucifixion is consistent with it being the day of preparation for the sabbath in John19:14 and other places?


#13

Hey Pug!
Now we’re getting serious here, thank you! Well I do say that a partial day fulfills the day, so when Christ was buried on Thursday before sunset, that fulfills the day. This was what was acceptable then, and this would fullfill the 3 days and nights. (partial nights fulfills the full night).

Thanks for asking the question:

Do you feel that Thursday for the crucifixion is consistent with it being the day of preparation for the Sabbath in John 19:14 and other places?

Yes, preparation day began on the 4th day of the week Hebrew time which is at sunset Wednesday. The passover lamb then was slain at twilight on the 5th day, or Thursday, the day and time that our Lord died.

Now the Lord had to be taken down from the Cross and buried before sunset on thursday because the next day which begins at sunset was a Sabbath, and they could do no work on the Sabbath. Friday was a Sabbath day. Doesn’t Matthew 28:1 say there was more than one sabbath? Please look up this particular passage, Pug, to confirm this or not. Thank you


#14

[quote=Scullinius]You’re probably thinking of John 2:19:

“Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

However, there are many references in the Gospels to the fact that Jesus will rise “on the third day.” Here’s a search of the online Douay-Rheims Bible:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=third+day&b=drb&t=2

In the Creeds we say that Jesus rose on the “third day.” Good Friday is the first day.

First and third days of what, precisely? His death, I suppose.
[/quote]

The following passages say that Jesus will rise AFTER three days. Mat 27:63, Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 So if Jesus’ prophecy of being buried three days and three nights is true, it can’t be fulfilled if the crucifixion was on Friday. Thursday is the day that fits mathmatically and scriptually.


#15

[quote=catholic2]The following passages say that Jesus will rise AFTER three days. Mat 27:63, Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 So if Jesus’ prophecy of being buried three days and three nights is true, it can’t be fulfilled if the crucifixion was on Friday. Thursday is the day that fits mathmatically and scriptually.
[/quote]

I don’t see how this could be the case though. Remember that John (who was there) said that permission was granted to break the legs of those crucified, so that they could die and be taken from their crosses before the Sabbath. Now if the crucifixion occured on Thursday afternoon, then there would have been a whole day before the beginning of the Sabbath, which started sundown on Friday. Indeed, the breaking of the legs would have only been necessary if the crucifixion occured on Friday.

As for the passages you cited, what translation did you use? My online Douay (and King James) say different:

Mar 9:31 (9:30)[size=2] And he taught his disciples and said to them: The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed,** he shall rise again the third day.** [/size]
[size=3][/size]
[size=2]Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him and spit on him and scourge him and kill him: and the third day he shall rise again. [/size]
[size=3][/size]
[size=3][size=2]Both of these verses indicate that the resurrection would occur **on **[/size]the third day.
[/size]


#16

[quote=mtr01]I don’t see how this could be the case though. Remember that John (who was there) said that permission was granted to break the legs of those crucified, so that they could die and be taken from their crosses before the Sabbath. Now if the crucifixion occured on Thursday afternoon, then there would have been a whole day before the beginning of the Sabbath, which started sundown on Friday. Indeed, the breaking of the legs would have only been necessary if the crucifixion occured on Friday.

As for the passages you cited, what translation did you use? My online Douay (and King James) say different:

Mar 9:31 (9:30)[size=2] And he taught his disciples and said to them: The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed,** he shall rise again the third day.**[/size]
[size=3][/size]
[size=2]Mar 10:34[/size] And they shall mock him and spit on him and scourge him and kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
[size=3][/size]
[size=3][size=2]Both of these verses indicate that the resurrection would occur **on **[/size][/size]the third day.

[/quote]

Hi. My quotes were from the NAB.

Here’s the** Greek(direct translation**, so it may sound funny sentence structure wise:
Mark 9:31 "he was teaching for the learners of him and he was saying to them that the son of the man is given over into hands of men, and they will kill him, and having been killed after three days he will stand up.
Mark 10:34 (Greek direct translation)
“and they will mock him and they will spit on him and they will scourge him and they will kill and after three days he will stand up.”

This is from **Ignatius Revised Standard Version **(translated from the original tongues, and highly respected among scholars and preferred by Catholic Scholars):
Mark 9:31 "for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, "The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him: and when he is killed, after three days he will rise."
Mark10:34 “and they will mock hi, and spit upon him and scourge him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise.”

Also, my New Jerusalem agrees with “after”. The preponderance of evidence is for “after” from the original language to best respected translations.


#17

[quote=mtr01]I don’t see how this could be the case though. Remember that John (who was there) said that permission was granted to break the legs of those crucified, so that they could die and be taken from their crosses before the Sabbath. Now if the crucifixion occured on Thursday afternoon, then there would have been a whole day before the beginning of the Sabbath, which started sundown on Friday. Indeed, the breaking of the legs would have only been necessary if the crucifixion occured on Friday.[size=3]
[/size]
[/quote]

Friday was a Sabbath day. Doesn’t your bible indicate more than one Sabbath? Check out Matthew 28:verse 1.

(obviously I’m baiting you and others to come back on this with incredulous indignation!)


#18

'Jesus rose on the third day"
When you come to a stop sign on an intersection, you must stop.

"Jesus rose after three days"
When you come to a stop sign on an intersection, you must stop, and then you can turn right.

I think you can take the expanded definition when you come to a stop sign. sigh :frowning: it’s probably not the best analogy…


#19

As far as the correct translation, the Church says that the Vulgate is to be taken AS THE ORIGINAL TEXT, that is, free from error. There is no Bible today that is translated from the original… so what if it is from some different manuscript of the Greek… it’s not the original, and St. Jerome, when writing the Vulgate, has the original Greek manuscripts, and he also had a far greater knowledge of language than any of us. Moreover, Trent says what I reiterated above, that the Vulgate is to be taken as the originals, without error. The Vulgate says He will rise ON THE THIRD DAY, not after the third day.

As far as when the Sabbath was–it was sundown Friday. If the sun is about to go down Friday afternoon, then it follows the Sabbath is about to begin, hence the breaking of the legs of St. Dismis and the evil theif.

The exact words of the Vulgate are: (St. Mark ix. 30 [31 in the NAB I suppose]) “docebat autem discipulos suos et dicebat illis quoniam Filius hominis tradetur in manus hominum et occident eum et occisus tertia die resurget” This is most literally translated “in the third day”, which would signify even more that it happened not after a full three days but in (during) the third day. And St. Mark x.34: "et inludent ei et conspuent eum et flagellabunt eum et interficient eum et tertia die resurget "; likewise here, since there is no preposition (e.g. “post”, meaning after), it must be read: “in the third day” (during the third day), which in common English is read: ‘on the third day’ or simply ‘the third day’, omiting any preposition, which is done in most translations, such as the Apostles’ Creed: “The third day He rose again from the dead”.


#20

I believe our Lord was crucified either on a Wednesday or Thursday. Because there were two Sabbaths during that week. Either way, 3 days and 3 nights doesn’t fit the time scheme for Jesus to be in his tomb from Friday to Sunday morning.


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