"GOODBYE, GOOD MEN" Can you believe this?


#1

I have read about some seminaries habit of not admitting Orthodox Catholic men in the periodical,“Oxford Review”. The address here is an interview of the author of Goodbye Good Men. It sounds like fiction to most of us, but it is factual. The psychological admitance test detects whether or not the candidate is in favor of female priests, the gay agenda and other politically correct topics. A read of this interview will enlighten you to what some seminaries are doing.
latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2002_SU_Rose.html

An Interview with Michael Rose
Summer 2002

[left]**TLM: **Give us a little background about your new book Goodbye, Good Men. That’s quite a title. What does it mean?
[/left]
[left]**Rose: **The thesis boils down to this: for more than thirty years now, qualified candidates for the priesthood have been turned away precisely for political reasons. Not because they were found unsuitable for seminary or for ordination, but because they were seen as a threat to the liberal status quo. What I’m talking about in my book is a systematic, ideological discrimination against orthodox candidates to the priesthood.
[/left]
[left]**TLM: **What exactly is meant by the “orthodox” candidate?
[/left]
[left]**Rose: **As I employ the term throughout the book, “orthodox” connotes adherence to the Magisterium of the Church and full acceptance of authentic Church teaching. It refers to the man who embraces the authentic traditions, devotions, and piety of the Church. The orthodox man is he who does not support women’s ordination, who defends the Church’s teaching on human sexuality and artificial birth control, who exhibits piety toward devotions such as the Rosary and Eucharistic adoration, and who accepts the Church’s understanding of the priesthood and doesn’t have an agenda to redefine or “re-envision” it.
[/left]


#2

Perhaps they are referring to nuts like “Pope” whoever who was made Pope and lives in his parents’ basement, just casue the semanaries wouldn’t accept his version of orthadoxy


#3

Well, no…i can’t quite believe it. I attended one of the seminaries featured in the book. I can only speak for myself (and a few other men who were my classmates, whom i talked to, and agree with me, i suppose) when i say that my former seminary was not the way it was portrayed to be. The man who provided the bulk of the information might have experienced or intuited certain things about the faculty and students–i didn’t see any of those things. I think i’m quite conservative and orthodox–i never felt singled out because of it. I happened to attend that seminary for three years–the man interviewed was there for one…so, my experience would seem to be more complete…


#4

Brother Dan, would you say that the majority of seminarians were as orthodox as you when you attended seminary? Would you agree that the seminaries tend to discriminate in general or is that an exaggeration?


#5

Dear nucatholic,

I’d say that I was probably a little more traditionally minded (in matters of opinion) than most of the other seminarians but in terms of a basic respect for the teaching/discipline of the Church and our Tradition, most (75%, or so) were very much like me. Even as I was there i could see that number–in my opinion, anyway–rising more and more with the new classes coming in.

The climate at many seminaries that were thought of as liberal or progressive has really changed in the last 15 years but I do think that some seminaries probably did discriminate in this regard but this one, contrary to what the book contends, didn’t. (based on my experience, anyway). Well, a better way to put it is that this seminary does not, now, discriminate based on this. It might have in the past, i don’t know.


#6

Hi,

I wonder why St Columbans, one of the largest Catholic Churches in Orange County, Ca, hasen’t had a vocation in 30 or more years?

I remember in the late 1960’s when a young priest came to dinner at my fathers house, and announced in front of all 6 children, and my parents, that he was having playboy sent to the rectory. He REALLY had great formation! I JUST can’t see how there can be anything wrong with the seminaries. Just look at the wonderful condition of the Clergy!

John


#7

[quote=john654]Hi,

I wonder why St Columbans, one of the largest Catholic Churches in Orange County, Ca, hasen’t had a vocation in 30 or more years?

! I JUST can’t see how there can be anything wrong with the seminaries. Just look at the wonderful condition of the Clergy!

John
[/quote]

Well you know the sayings by their fruits you will know them (no pun intended). While it’s hard to believe this sort of thing was as systematic as portrayed in the book, having been in industries where homosexuals were quite powerful, I’ve seen how insular and hidebound they can be. They are ANYTHING but tolerant of other lifestyles and other ways of thinking as anything but their own worldview is considered a threat. It would make sense if a particular seminary had become a haven for homosexuals, that they wouldn’t want a bunch of orthodox seminarians ‘spoiling all the fun’ It also makes perfect sense that straight men would be totally put off by an atmosphere of homosexuality. Straights realize if they interact with homosexuals that they will be seen as either approving or embracing that culture. Most will turn and get outta Dodge if they believe the organization is run by homosexuals.

Having read the book I hope that things have changed if indeed this represents a number of our seminaries.

Lisa N


#8

Brother Dan, thanks for your information. It seems like it is being blown out of proportion but even so, I can see with my own eyes the large number of left-leaning clergy that I have been able to speak with. The parish that I go to at my university is very liberal. Unfortunately, I’m in RCIA and havn’t been taught anything that sets Catholics apart from Protestants. No contraception, no civic responsibilty, no abortion, no homosexuality, and no respect for papal authority talks whatsoever. Its disheartening.


#9

My spirirtual director said there is more truth in that book than not…so go figure. Although Canada was only mentioned once (if my memory serves me well), I suppose there would’ve been the same problem here per capita.

I have noticed that our younger priests are much more orthodox and conservative than the generation before them. The pendulum is swinging back I think.

There is a congregation of priest here in Canada founded by Bob Bedard and it is called The Companions of the Cross and is drawing quite a few priests…unbelievable.

I would like to hear from other priests and their view of this book…

Blessings,
Shoshana


#10

There is a congregation of priest here in Canada founded by Bob Bedard and it is called The Companions of the Cross and is drawing quite a few priests…unbelievable.

I would like to hear from other priests and their view of this book…

Blessings,
Shoshana

WOW!

[left]Cool, my last name is Bedard! Do they have a web site?[/left]
[left] [/left]
[left]Peace,[/left]
[left]John Bedard[/left]


#11

[quote=john654]WOW!

[left]Cool, my last name is Bedard! Do they have a web site?[/left]

[left]Peace,[/left]

[left]John Bedard[/left]

[/quote]


John,

As I said this congregation is growing in leaps in bounds…and here is the website…they are stationed in Ottawa, Canada:
www.companionsofthecross.ca .

Blessings,
Shoshana


#12

Dear nucatholic,

Yes, i certainly believe that there are such priests around. It’s sad. Happily, though, you seem to have other sources of inspiration and information.

To you and to the others who have posted, i would like to say that i do not mean to imply that the book is way off. I think its premise and some of the information is right on. At the same time, i think the situation has changed more than the author admitted or led his readers to believe…at one seminary, anyway. And, from what i’ve heard and seen, other seminaries have made similar improvements. Admittedly, though, things were quite bad not too long ago and it would be hard to blow that out of proportion. It was disgraceful.


#13

I attended the Pontifical College Josephinum from 1988 to 1994. While the Josephinum was seldom mentioned in Rose’s book, one claim made about the PCJ regarding nightly rosary was grossly inaccurate, and quite frankly false. There was no effort on the part of the faculty to stop anyone from praying a daily rosary at 11:00pm, and, in fact, a particular faculty member (who is now the Vice Rector of the College) prayed with us. What was discouraged was major seminary students going to the college to pray the rosary, as all fraternization between minor and major seminarians was frowned upon.

A second claim made in Rose’s book regarded a friend of mine who attended another seminary. The claim is an outright falsehood, but because this involves the reputation of a number of people, I don’t think it proper or charitable to go into any kind of detail regarding this matter.

I don’t know about the rest of the claims made in Rose’s book, but these two shortcomings make me question the veracity of the whole.

Now, I don’t think that Michael Rose is an out and out sensationalist and propagandist, but I do think that he allowed his agenda to color his observations regarding the claims made by former seminarians. We former seminarians can really be an interesting group of people. Most former seminarians are, in fact, fellows of rather unstable character, at least from my experience, and I wouldn’t consider “former seminarian” to be a “plus” on someone’s resume. Most former seminarians I know usually suffer from a case of the “extreme”. Sometimes they are suffering from “extreme” orthodoxy, other times “extreme” heterodoxy, and sometimes from “extreme” mental problems. Even seminarians that leave on their own, present company included, suffered from one “extreme” or another. (Just in case you are wondering, mine was “extreme” pride… of which my wife fixed much of the problem.) It seemed to me that Rose may have interviewed more than one seminarian who fell in the “extreme” orthodoxy category who after being pushed out of the seminary added to their ailment, “extreme” bitterness.

There were young men I met who were, like me, orthodox enough to hang bells from, but they lacked the necessary charity, or perhaps I should say, charitable demeanor to be effective priests. For the person who says “I wish those liberals would die” there is no place in the priesthood. These men who had the attitude, “its my way or the highway” would have had a difficult time as a priest who is required to be obedient to their bishops. One or two of these “orthodox to hang bells from, and I’m not afraid to shove it your face”, it turned out were compensating for other problems.

Does this mean that the seminary faculty was just as saintly as could be? Well, not exactly. I was lucky to have gone to the PCJ, which, by and large, seems to have kept at least a decent enough record to avoid Rose’s attention. The PCJ was a good school, but this was mainly due to the high academic standards (at least in comparison with other seminary colleges and theologates) that school kept. Despite this, there were many problems including feminists on the college faculty, an over-indulgence in psychological pseudoisms, at least one anti-Catholic/pro-abortion faculty member (who taught science), substantial bread causing more than one sacrilege committed against the Eucharistic species, and active homosexuality.


#14

That last problem was not the problem that Rose may have made it seem in his book. Were there homosexuals? Yes. Were they on the faculty? I found out two years after leaving the seminary, that yes, at least one (who, surprise, surprise, was a “progressive” Catholic). Had I ever been propositioned? Yes, by a theology student while I was a college student. Did that make me seriously question my faith and vocation? Nope. I told him I wasn’t interested, and visited his formation director the next day, accompanied by my own formation director. In response there was no backlash against me, and that student, with the help of the formation board, discovered that he was not called to be a priest. It took the formation board three days to help him make that decision. The “Lavender Mafia” did not run the PCJ, neither the faculty nor the student body. This does not mean that there wasn’t a gay subculture at the PCJ. In many ways the faculty simply turned their heads and ignored this activity, and acted only when there was a public complaint. And it was true that some heterodox faculty members, actually perhaps only two at the time, condoned this homosexual activity, simply because the homosexuals were usually the heterodox seminarians.

Edit: I should say that there was also quite a bit of hetrosexual sins against chastity taking place as well. Ohio State campus was right down the street, and more than one PCJ student was familiar with the strip. Drinking was also a problem, and more than one seminarian, present company included, was familiar with the Ruckmore right across the street.

There are or were serious problems in our seminaries. Homosexuality, as it turns out, however, was never really the root of the problem. It was a symptom of a deeper problem: infidelity—infidelity to the Church’s teachings, infidelity to God’s sacramental presence, and infidelity to one’s own vocation. Thankfully this infidelity didn’t run as rampant at the Josephinum as it did in other seminaries (St. John’s comes to mind rather quickly). Discussing a seminarian’s stained bed sheets isn’t dealing with this root problem, and to be honest, it smacks of glorying in another’s sins. It is my sincere hope that this book doesn’t discourage young men from pursuing a vocation to the priesthood.


#15

The website for the Companions of the Cross is actually

www.companionscross.ca

I have several of their seminarians on my intention list.
st julie


#16

[quote=st julie]The website for the Companions of the Cross is actually

www.companionscross.ca

I have several of their seminarians on my intention list.
st julie
[/quote]


You are right stjulie…my bad…and me reading this from their periodical…sheesh…

Blessings,
Shoshana


#17

I am aware that there are problems with heterodoxy in the Church - and it makes me sad that there are seminaries out there that encourage dissent.
However - I am uneasy with Michael Rose’s book.

Crisis magazine covered one issue with a certain seminarian (now a priest) and alleged he was a homosexual.
Rose did not attempt to interview this person - nor anyone else close to him to support his allegations.
He relied on one source.
It turns out the guy is not a homosexual - and now there’s a big controversy over “he said - he said”

I think allegations need to be PROVEN before they are published.


#18

I read this book and was so upset by it that when a young man from our parish became a priest, I wondered if he had been a part of the things mentioned in it. I am so sad that because of the actions of some I can’t look at priests the way I did as a child. I understand that my hero worship was unrealistic but I wish that I wasn’t so suspicious all of the time about priests and their motives. I do believe that as the building stones of Christ’s church, we must also take some responsibility for what has happened in the last few decades. When we, the people in the pews demand faithfulness to doctrine and the more traditional practice of Catholicism we will get that from our clergy. Too few church-going Catholics think beyond Mass on Sunday so it has been easy for liberal-minded or progressive thinkers to control the direction of vocation and doctrine. Christ’s Church is our church and we are responsible for what happens to Her. I pray for a revival in the hearts of all Catholics; that they will not only be attenders of Mass but participants in all aspects of the Church ministry.


#19

[quote=Shoshana]My spirirtual director said there is more truth in that book than not…so go figure. Although Canada was only mentioned once (if my memory serves me well), I suppose there would’ve been the same problem here per capita.

I have noticed that our younger priests are much more orthodox and conservative than the generation before them. The pendulum is swinging back I think.

There is a congregation of priest here in Canada founded by Bob Bedard and it is called The Companions of the Cross and is drawing quite a few priests…unbelievable.

I would like to hear from other priests and their view of this book…

Blessings,
Shoshana
[/quote]

EDIT

Never mind, I found their vision statement. “Magisterium” is the magic word with me… :thumbsup:


#20

I also read the book and have learned since that it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Hopefully, we’ll know more after the Vatican completes its visits of seminaries. If they do it right - no prior notification - it will be beneificial. If not, well, I just hope things are getting better as I’v e heard here and elsewhere.


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