Great Apostasy


#1

I saw on Wikipedia that protestants sometimes cite the following verse to condemn the Church as having fallen into apostasy.

First Timothy 4:1-3 states:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (KJV)

Apparently, protestants claim that the parts about forbidding to marry and abstaining from meat refer to priestly celibacy and the Lenten requirement to fast from meat on Fridays. What do y’all think?


#2

I always get a laugh whenever I read this. Are we forbidden to marry? I don’t recall any time that the Church ever forbade marriage. Yes, the priesthood in the Latin rite is celibate, but I don’t think Paul is referring to that in any way; in fact, Paul seems to be referring more of a prohibition of marriage on all members of that false faith, something which cannot be accused of the Catholic Church. On not eating meat as well, the Church does not prohibit us from doing so. It’s done only during Lent, and then it’s not as enforced as it once was. Even then, it was only during Fridays. So, no go on this one. It’s just the usual seeking of any excuse to go against the Catholic Church, without any basis at all.


#3

What this “y’all” thinks can be readily found in The Great Apostasy: History or Fiction and Xavier’s Contention That Priestly Celibacy Is UnBiblical.

Don’t let 'em hand ya that stuff…besides the “reformation” was closer to the “end times” than anything that we have done… :eek:
Pax tecum,


#4

Have there been times throughout the history of Christianity (or currently) where there were christians (or pseudo-christians) outside the Catholic Church who were forbidden to marry and eat meat?


#5

[quote=CollegeKid]Have there been times throughout the history of Christianity (or currently) where there were christians (or pseudo-christians) outside the Catholic Church who were forbidden to marry and eat meat?
[/quote]

I don’t know of any who forbids marriage, but there are some sects who do forbid to eat certain types of meat.


#6

[quote=CollegeKid]I saw on Wikipedia that protestants sometimes cite the following verse to condemn the Church as having fallen into apostasy.

First Timothy 4:1-3 states:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (KJV)

Apparently, protestants claim that the parts about forbidding to marry and abstaining from meat refer to priestly celibacy and the Lenten requirement to fast from meat on Fridays. What do y’all think?
[/quote]

Well, Heres how I see it. In the Next, chapter of Tim. He talks about a group of widows who go around doing good deeds. But, Paul tells them not to allow young widows because they might “wax wanton against Christ, They will marry;Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith”. Now Paul tells us in Romans (I can’t remeber exactly where sorry) that it is not a sin for a widow to remarry. It would only be a sin if they took a vow or a pledge not to remarry.
Also, I think during the lenton period we are allowed to eat fish. (I am still new so I could be wrong on that part)I hope I helped.

CM, Thanks for the link to “The Great apostasy:Fact or fiction”. I know that my more protestant faimly members that are hardcore in the “We are right” mentality will be throwing the accusation at me and I need to know how to say (as lee corso says during College football Pre-game show) “Not so fast my freind”.


#7

[quote=CollegeKid]Have there been times throughout the history of Christianity (or currently) where there were christians (or pseudo-christians) outside the Catholic Church who were forbidden to marry and eat meat?
[/quote]

Yes indeed there were and in fact it was some of these that the New Testament passages were addressed to. Here is a list of references to such folks from New Advent’s Catholic Encyclopedia that should help you out a little.
Pax tecum,


#8

[quote=Church Militant]Yes indeed there were and in fact it was some of these that the New Testament passages were addressed to. Here is a list of references to such folks from New Advent’s Catholic Encyclopedia that should help you out a little.
Pax tecum,
[/quote]

Thanks CM, very informative links. Eases my mind.


#9

[quote=CollegeKid]I saw on Wikipedia that protestants sometimes cite the following verse to condemn the Church as having fallen into apostasy.

First Timothy 4:1-3 states:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (KJV)

Apparently, protestants claim that the parts about forbidding to marry and abstaining from meat refer to priestly celibacy and the Lenten requirement to fast from meat on Fridays. What do y’all think?
[/quote]

What do I think? I think it is selective ignorance of Scripture and the adherence to the preformed conclusion that the Catholic Church invented doctrine.
Firstly, the Catholic Church considers marriage a Sacrament, thereby elevating it to the highest order. Secondly, Christ himself was celibate and this example should not be conveniently overlooked especially in light of Luke 9:23 “…If anyone wishes to come after me he must deny himself…” In addition, to claim that Paul’s comment on marriage in 1st Timothy is his only contribution to the topic is truly “selective ignorance”. Read 1Cor 7:7 “Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am…to the unmarried and to the widows I say: IT IS A GOOD THING FOR THEM TO REMAIN AS THEY ARE AS I DO, but IF they cannot exercise self control they should marry…” Not exactly a glowing endorcement for marriage! Read the whole chapter - he continues to recommend celibacy and to describe it as a holier path, though not all are called to it. Anyhow, he clearly believes at least SOME of us should be celibate - are there any Protestants holding to that as a discipline? On this topic I will stop here before I become uncharitable, which I have no right to be. I love our Protestant brothers and sisters and have learned much from them for which I am grateful - I just carry the sting of disunity in my heart and I need to be careful not to allow it to grow.
With respect to not eating meat on Fridays there is even less ground for criticism of the Church. Firstly, I am unaware of any food being prohibited by the Church. Fasting is not the prohibition of a food, which is what the cited verse refers to. Fasting is the prohibition of EATING for a time. And again, guess who we can go to as our example? That’s right, our Lord and Saviour fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. The OT is filled with fasting - distinct from the food prohibitions - as a holy exercise to draw one closer to God.
In conclusion, there is no prohibition to FOOD by the Church, nor is there a prohibition to FASTING in the bible. Those who attempt to equate the two and thereby discredit the Church do so out of pure ignorance, selective ignorance and/or willful slander based on presupposition. But hey, Ive done worse and God has graciously forgiven me - who am I to judge?

Phil


#10

[quote=Philthy]What do I think? I think it is selective ignorance of Scripture and the adherence to the preformed conclusion that the Catholic Church invented doctrine.
Firstly, the Catholic Church considers marriage a Sacrament, thereby elevating it to the highest order. Secondly, Christ himself was celibate and this example should not be conveniently overlooked especially in light of Luke 9:23 “…If anyone wishes to come after me he must deny himself…” In addition, to claim that Paul’s comment on marriage in 1st Timothy is his only contribution to the topic is truly “selective ignorance”. Read 1Cor 7:7 “Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am…to the unmarried and to the widows I say: IT IS A GOOD THING FOR THEM TO REMAIN AS THEY ARE AS I DO, but IF they cannot exercise self control they should marry…” Not exactly a glowing endorcement for marriage! Read the whole chapter - he continues to recommend celibacy and to describe it as a holier path, though not all are called to it. Anyhow, he clearly believes at least SOME of us should be celibate - are there any Protestants holding to that as a discipline? On this topic I will stop here before I become uncharitable, which I have no right to be. I love our Protestant brothers and sisters and have learned much from them for which I am grateful - I just carry the sting of disunity in my heart and I need to be careful not to allow it to grow.
With respect to not eating meat on Fridays there is even less ground for criticism of the Church. Firstly, I am unaware of any food being prohibited by the Church. Fasting is not the prohibition of a food, which is what the cited verse refers to. Fasting is the prohibition of EATING for a time. And again, guess who we can go to as our example? That’s right, our Lord and Saviour fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. The OT is filled with fasting - distinct from the food prohibitions - as a holy exercise to draw one closer to God.
In conclusion, there is no prohibition to FOOD by the Church, nor is there a prohibition to FASTING in the bible. Those who attempt to equate the two and thereby discredit the Church do so out of pure ignorance, selective ignorance and/or willful slander based on presupposition. But hey, Ive done worse and God has graciously forgiven me - who am I to judge?

Phil
[/quote]

:slight_smile: good post


#11

As one reads what these early heretics believed, it is obvious that even before the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church was fighting against “protesters” that had corrupted the truth of the Gospel by their own private interpretations. Protesters have been around since the founding of the Catholic Church that claim that they are the True Christians®™ who fight against the errors of the Catholic Church. :rolleyes: there is nothing new under the sun
Ecclesiastes 1:9The Catholic Church prevailed against the first century Protestants, and the Catholic Church will prevail against the twenty-first century Protestants. :slight_smile:


closed #12

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