Greeks, Catholics, Water and Words


#1

I cannot believe that Hagia Sophia has not already posted this story, but I am happy to beat her to the punch.

[quote=USCCB]Bishop Dimitrios of Xanthos reported that the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the Americas (SCOBA) decided at its meeting in September to receive the Consultation’s 1999 agreed statement, “Baptism and ‘Sacramental Economy’”, and to forward it to the heads of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches for their information and consideration. The agreed statement includes a recommendation that the Patriarchate of Constantinople formally withdraw its 1755 decree requiring the rebaptism of Roman Catholics who are received into the Orthodox Church.
[/quote]

First the Greeks and the Lutherans, now the Catholics and the SCOBA - when will this ecumencial amity end?!? :wink: Speaking personally, however, I am a mite disappointed. Although my parents were not at all religious, they did have me baptized as a baby as a sop to my very Lutheran (MO synod) grandmother, so I do not remember my own baptism. I have often thought that, were I inclined to leave the one ark of salvation, one of the (many) enticements of Orthodoxy would be that I would get to find out what baptism is like, but this agreement would scuttle that. :slight_smile: Ah well, there is always ROCOR or the Old Calendar Greeks… :stuck_out_tongue:


#2

Incidentally, all flippant joking aside, I posted this because I thought it was an auspicious omen and a happy contrast to other recent news. Enjoy. :slight_smile:


#3

No one has anything to say about an agreement between the Catholic bishops and SCOBA concerning mutual recognition of each other’s baptisms? :ehh:


#4

An interview with His Beatitude Christodoulos, archbishop of Athens and all Greece

Q: Who blocked your trip to Rome, and why?

A: "The conservative elements of our Church have not forgotten the wounds we have received from the Catholics throughout history.

The conservative Orthodox cannot forgive old wounds … :frowning:

How about a new approach - let’s evangelize the conservative Orthodox and teach them the Gospel!
:smiley:


#5

But for Catholic Archbishop Fóscolos, the Barricades Have not Fallen

In the newspaper of the Italian bishops’ conference, “Avvenire,” correspondent Mimmo Muolo on October 29 compared some affirmations from Archbishop Christodoulos on relations with the Catholics of Greece with other affirmations – of a different tenor – from the Catholic archbishop of Athens, Nikolaus Fóscolos. …

Hostility against the Church of Rome and against ecumenical dialogue are a constant in the Greek Church, much more so than in other Orthodox Churches. In 1963, Christodoulos’ predecessor, Chrisostomos II, entreated the patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras, not to meet Pope Paul VI in Jerusalem – as indeed took place – because it would be like “planting a murderous knife in the heart of the Orthodox Church.”

:rolleyes:


#6

All in good time, guys. The Holy Spirit will mend the rift at the right time.


#7

[quote=GrzeszDeL]No one has anything to say about an agreement between the Catholic bishops and SCOBA concerning mutual recognition of each other’s baptisms? :ehh:
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It is just another instance of the child thinking it is wiser than its parents.

The Orthodox in America, a small community of probably 3-6 million, are unable to achieve canonical unity among themselves and live in a flagrant (but temporarily tolerated) violation of the Canons requiring “one city, one bishop.” And still they have the presumption to address the ancient Patriarchates, demanding the abolition of ancient Canons and the introduction of new and non-traditional teachings on sacramental theology.

My own parents would have said: Don’t try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.


#8

[quote=Matt16_18]A: "The conservative elements of our Church have not forgotten the wounds we have received from the Catholics throughout history.

The conservative Orthodox cannot forgive old wounds … :frowning:

[/quote]

To quote Patriarch Paul of Serbia, who was blessing the memorial to the martyrs at Jasenovac concentration camp: “We must forgive, but we must not forget.”

In other words, if we forget and if we cease to be vigilant, the same calamities may be visited on us again. It is not a case of simply one nasty persecution from the separated Catholic brethren, but of many many instances throughout the history of Orthodoxy since Rome split from the Church. The most recent was the 1940s’ persecution in Croatia where approximately 700,000 Orthodox were killed. The faithful are indeed asked to struggle to forgive the Catholics but they are not asked to forget the martyrs and their sufferings.


#9

[quote=Fr Ambrose]To quote Patriarch Paul of Serbia, who was blessing the memorial to the martyrs at Jasenovac concentration camp: “We must forgive, but we must not forget.”

In other words, if we forget and if we cease to be vigilant, the same calamities may be visited on us again. It is not a case of simply one nasty persecution from the separated Catholic brethren, but of many many instances throughout the history of Orthodoxy since Rome split from the Church. The most recent was the 1940s’ persecution in Croatia where approximately 700,000 Orthodox were killed. The faithful are indeed asked to struggle to forgive the Catholics but they are not asked to forget the martyrs and their sufferings.
[/quote]

The persecutions of the 1940’s is the most recent example that you can remember?

Serbian soldiers under Radovan Karadzic, and Ratko Mladic were killing Catholics in the 1990’s. Both Radovan Karadzic, and Ratko Mladic have been indicted for war crimes, including genocide.As for those who continually justify these atrocities by citing atrocities against Serbs from World War 2, I should point out that during the terrible WW2 persecution of Serbs in Banja Luka by the Nazis and Ustashe, the Muslim leader of Banja Luka, the Imam, wrote a courageous letter to the President of Croatia demanding that the persecutions of Serbs and destruction of Serb property be stopped. Would that we would find a letter like that from Patriarch Pavle to Radovan Karadzic! Karadzic was very closely tied into the Serb Church leadership and a strong message from Pavle would might have saved untold numbers of lives.

The International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) which had representives in Banja Luka as eye witness, from the spring of 1992, when the Serb army occupied the Banja Luka region, until the Dayton accords in the fall of 1995, the persecution of Catholics and Muslims was organized and perpetrated by the civil, police, and military leadership in Banja Luka. It was methodical, and, according to the Tribunal in The Hague, entailed deliberate acts of genocide. Almost all 500,000 non-Serbs were killed, tortured, expelled from their homes, put into slave-labor camps, or forced to live in terror. Every single mosque in Banja Luka was dynamited and effaced from the earth, including the masterwork of 16th century South Slavic art, the Ferhadija Mosque. Many Catholic Churches were burned.

Two death camps, Omarska and Keraterm, and two notoriously brutal concentration camps, Trnopolje and Manjaca, were set up for the liquidation and abuse of Muslims (and some Catholics). The Tribunal has indicted the commanders of Omarska and Keraterm for genocide.

“May God Forgive Them. May God Forgive Us All”


#10

I have not been following the Hague proceedings very much, but I seem to rememeber that the people convicted and imprisoned so far for crimes against humanity have been Roman Catholics, such as the Croatian General Mirko Norac, the Croatian police commander Mladen Markac etc.

Btw, the pre-war population of Banja Luka in 1991 was around 190,000 - so it is imposible for Serbs to have killed, tortured, expelled 500,000 Catholics from Banja Luka. Just another example of mass media lies.


#11

[quote=Fr Ambrose]My own parents would have said: Don’t try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.
[/quote]

I love the phrase “don’t try to teach your grandmother how to such eggs.” So rich with imagery, that… :thumbsup:

Meanwhile, I guess that we will see what the various Orthodox patriarchates think of the SCOBA recommendation. I am entirely indifferent to the outcome, as it matters not a pair of dingo’s kidneys to me whether the EP thinks that I am baptized or not. If the idea is well received, fine; if not, also fine. I suppose that I am more concerned about the USCCB forwarding to Rome its suggestion that Lyons’ condemnation of the filioque-deniers be set aside, but I have every confidence that Rome will keep the Faith, just as She always has.

Incidentally, I would just like to note what poor taste is shown in attempts at competitive martyrdom in the Balkans. Millions of Croats have killed millions of Serbs, and millions of Serbs have killed millions of Croats, and both have killed millions of Muslims. No side in this mess has any claim whatever to get up on a high horse and chastise the other two. All three should be donning sack-cloth and ashes and begging mercy, and I will be just as glad to see Kordic in jail as I will be to see Mladic. They should all end their days breaking rocks with a pick.


#12

[quote=Fr Ambrose]The Orthodox in America… are unable to achieve canonical unity among themselves and live in a flagrant (but temporarily tolerated) violation of the Canons requiring “one city, one bishop.” And still they have the presumption to address the ancient Patriarchates, demanding the abolition of ancient Canons and the introduction of new and non-traditional teachings on sacramental theology.
[/quote]

In all fairness to the Orthodox here in the U.S., their presently-irregular state is mostly the fault of these same ancient Patriarchates. Most American Orthodox have been itching for years to unite into one pan-ethnic American Church, but the various heads of their ethnic jurisdictions do not want to let go of them because they are cash-cows. As such, it is unjust to compare the Americans unfavorably to the old-world Churches, whose fault it is that the American Orthodox Churches are in the mess that they are in (or at least this is what my Orthodox friends tell me).


#13

:thumbsup: I agree.


#14

[quote=GrzeszDeL]Millions of Croats have killed millions of Serbs, and millions of Serbs have killed millions of Croats, and both have killed millions of Muslims.
[/quote]

Millions?


#15

Hyperbole, to be sure. It gets the point across more effectively.


#16

[quote=prodromos]Millions?
[/quote]

It is not as if I have been keeping a census, but I feel fairly confident in asserting that if we start from the beginning (i.e. from the point that Venetians brought Roman Catholicism to Dalmatia, thus innaugurating the Croatian identity and the point at which the Turks succeeded in coercing a substantial mass of Serbs to apostasize to Islam, thus forging the Bosnian identity) then it is safe to say millions on each side have killed millions on the other. On the other hand, if someone here is a professor of Balkan history and thinks that “millions” is either too high or too low, I would welcome correction. :slight_smile:


#17

hey matt,

don’t you live in southern CA?

i was in LA last weekend, i should have looked you up.

couldn’t find a catholic church anywhere in the area on sunday.
closest i could come was an orthodox church in pasedena, which was where i was staying,
doesn’t any parish have sunday evening mass in the LA area?


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