Guess who made it into a Mormon article?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As some of you may or may not know, I am a freelance writer for Examiner.com. It is a website that allows writers to post articles on subjects that they are familiar with and have a passion for. I myself am an Orthodox Christian Examiner. On the website, there is a “LDS Examiner.”

In one of his articles he wrote about the so-called “Great Apostasy.” Apparently he did not like my criticism of it and found me worthy to be an attacking point in another article. :stuck_out_tongue: He devoted a lot of the article to me!:eek:

All Christians know that the very idea of a “great apostasy” is blasphemous at best. But due to some twisting of Scripture, this Examiner seeks to “prove” that Christ predicted an apostasy, regardless of the fact that Christ promised “the gates of hell will not prevail against it (St. Matt. 16:18).” It also makes no sense for Mormons to accept the Bible at all. The very Church that compiled the Bible, which used councils of Bishops to do so, the Mormons regard as heretics. How can they trust the Bible? The Examiner also makes a point to quote Church Fathers in his preceding articles. Why do that? They see anyone after St. John to be a heretic.

What do you all think? Is the idea of a “great apostasy” blasphemous? Here is a link to his article.

In Christ,
Andrew

2 Thessalonians, chapter 2
1 We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him,
2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,” or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god -
5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming,
9 the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie,
10 and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved.
11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.
13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth.
14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Basically, Mormons take verse 7 and go, “Oh, so the apostasy is already at hand!” Yet that’s not what Paul is saying. In the first verse, Paul addresses an issue among the Thessalonians, namely, that a false prophet has come among them spreading lies about the imminent Second Coming. He reminds them what he instructed them about an apostosy and Antichrist proceeding the Second Coming, as indicated in the fifth verse, and goes through the instruction again: how a great apostasy must proceed the Antichrist, how the Antichrist will deceive many and spread wickedness, how God will permit wicked men to worship the Antichrist, how when Christ comes He will defeat the Antichrist, and that Christ calls everyone to share in His glory. He reassures the Thessalonians that the apostosy has not yet come, that the mystery of wickedness is not the apostasy, and so the Second Coming isn’t imminent as they were tricked to believed. In verse fifteen, after telling them that they are called to share in Jesus’ glory, he tells them to hold fast to what the Apostles taught them so that they can have a share in the coming glory.

The logical summary of his article would be: if you are carrying a gallon of water and you spill a drop, you are no longer carrying water. AND he can not give an exact date of when you are no longer carrying water.

Sir Thomas More spoke on this somewhat in his Dialogue Concerning Heresies, where he talks about the belief that the Church got tarnished up until the time of the Reformation, or that Christ is with us only through the Bible. As he points out, Christ promised to be with the Church always at the time of the early apostles (Matt 28:20), even before the Bible was collected together. As I always say, either Christ is a liar or God is a victim of fatalism :smiley:

That is a great analogy, Stephen. I’m not as clever and eloquent as you. Would you mind if I used that? :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m still surprised that I go that much “press.” LOL.

In Christ,
Andrew

That article is okay; but not as good as mine! :slight_smile: I am no “examiner;” but I wrote an article in my Blog on this subject more than a year ago that does a better job of addressing your questions. Another difference is that I am right here to reply to your criticisms of it, which he isn’t! :smiley: You can check it out here, and tell me what you think.

The “great apostasy” is the Mormonoid church and her splinter groups.

She is described in the Book of Mormon as “great and abominable above all the churches.”

Among the “precious promises” she rejects are the Apocrypha and teachings of the Fathers.

Sure you can use my analogy anytime.
After talking with Mormons about the ahistorical event they can the Great Apostasy, I believe all that a Mormon is left with is:

What are the keys of the kingdom? It is the power to bind on earth and in heaven. Elsewhere the word “seal” is used. Whatsoever these men would declare on earth would come to pass. They were given power from God to act in his name in righteousness. John 20:23 tells us that this includes authority to remit sins and to retain them. This is the authority that was lost through the falling away.- Greg West

All they can do is believe it happened. They know deep down it is not a historical event. It is a belief they have to justify their own Apostasy in 1844. Their beliefs are irrational and could never have come from God.

That analogy is false. My article refutes that.

I was making an analogy about someones article about his Mormon belief in the mythical ‘great apostasy’, NOT about the falsehood of the ‘great apostasy’ in general.

My analogy stands

Interesting article, but my original premise still stands. It seems like you took much effort to pull a lot of Scripture out of context though. It makes no sense for Christ to establish the Church upon His holy apostles, give them authority, which they clearly pass down (choosing St. Matthias in the Acts, St. Timothy being made a Bishop, etc.) only to allow the Church to fall into error. Christ said He would be with us “until the end of the age.”

You don’t cite any proof for the actual apostasy taking place, you just say “it happened” or “the Church adopted error.” What are these errors and why?

Why after the death of St. John the Theologian? You seem to accept much of what the Early Church put into practice AFTER that time. Why? It apostasized and should be considered demonic. Why do you use the Bible? You are trusting the authority that put it into place. Why meet for worship on Sunday? Bishops in the Church made that ruling.

Why continually change doctrine? There is the whole polygamy and banning Blacks to your “priesthood.” Christ is the same “yesterday, today and tomorrow.” The only way for an apostasy to occur is for God to lie, which He cannot. It simply isn’t his thing. :thumbsup:

I’ll take my chances with a Church that claims to have originated with Christ before He ascended in glory to heaven.

In Christ,
Andrew

The above questions were already addressed in my Blog. If you read that article carefully enough, you wouldn’t need to ask those questions.

Why continually change doctrine? There is the whole polygamy and banning Blacks to your “priesthood.” Christ is the same “yesterday, today and tomorrow.” The only way for an apostasy to occur is for God to lie, which He cannot. It simply isn’t his thing. :thumbsup:

That is an entirely different issue from the Apostasy. Whether Mormonism is true or false, it does not alter the fact of the Apostasy.

I’ll take my chances with a Church that claims to have originated with Christ before He ascended in glory to heaven.

I entirely respect your wishes to do that. But again, that is not an argument for or agaisnt the Apostasy.

This is a great question considering Mormons use changing doctrine as ‘proof’ of an apostasy. Joseph Smith adopted doctrine changed during the protestant revolt and Mormons continue to change doctrine to this day.

[/quote]

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

When its source comes from a single man whose teachings contradict the majority of Christian churches, that teaching comes under question.

Harpazo: I just read the article. I would have to agree with you that the Mormon idea of the “great apostasy” is blasphemous.

The LDS-Church-Examiner manipulated quotes and turned truth into dressed-up non-truth.

The Mormon Church uses many different tactics to conceal the truth behind what they really believe. I know this very well. About 12 years ago, I joined the Mormon Church after taking lessons with Mormon Missionaries. A Mormon Bishop was a friend of mine.

They try to convince potential converts that Mormonism is Christianity. It is far from it. After I discovered some of their true beliefs, I left the church. I felt deceived and betrayed by my friend, the Mormon Bishop-who would not even look at me, or speak to me, the last time we ran into each other at a restaurant.

Going up against the Mormons can also be dangerous. Pray for God’s protection and guidance, when you do. Pray that nothing has been done with your “name.” Pray for Spiritual protection. I know of what I speak.

Pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Pray hard my friend.

Be more careful than I have been on these Forums. The LDS Forum Members can be “all politeness,” but you never really know what is going on behind the scenes.

Christian55

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.