Have you read the Scriptures to see if we should be praying to Mary? You might start with Jeremiah 44 and then see if you can find anywhere in Scripture where we are to pray to anyone but God.
I’m not comfortable with that prayer… and just avoid it. Good news is that there is nothing wrong with avoiding it. And for those that is more comfortable for, they can enjoy it.
I personally recommend Blessed John Henry Newman’s writings on Mary and devotion to her. He was arguably the greatest Catholic mind of the 19th Century and his writings are so thorough and thoughtful that there is never question about the difference between devotion and doctrine. He is also very articulate when it comes to the sentimentalism that is often prevalent in Catholic devotion to Mary and how that should be thought of.
I hear Blessed Cardinal Newman’s cause for sainthood is advancing…praise God. Hears praying that his writings and example become more well known.
While I agree with your ultimate conclusion, I disagree with your take on Jeremiah 44. Jeremiah was speaking about the people of Judah who had fled from Jerusalem to Egypt because they expected the Babylonians to retaliate for killing the governor appointed by Nebuchadnezzar. These people apparently, even after all they went through with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple were still worshipping foreign gods, possibly Astarte, or Isis. This isn’t referring to Mary. That being said, multiple passages throughout the books of the law speak against mediums, and Isaiah speaks against praying to the dead (Isaiah 8:19).
To Pray means to ask or to beg.
If I begged you to pray for me, I’m going to guess you would do it.
Same with Mary, we ask her to pray for us.
The psalmist prayerfully addressed the angels in heaven (Psalm 103:20; Psalm 148:2) and more generally all the works of the Lord (Psalm 103:22), which would implicitly include the righteous dead who are now like the angels in heaven, asking them to bless or praise the Lord. The psalmist even prayerfully addressed all other so-called “gods,” asking them to worship, to “bow down before” the Lord. (Psalm 97:7)
In addition, in the fuller Catholic Scriptures, in Daniel, not only did the three young Jewish men who were thrown into Nebuchadnezzar’s fiery furnace prayerfully address all the works of the Lord (Daniel 3:57), including the angels (Daniel 3:58), as the psalmist did, asking them to “bless the Lord, praise and exalt him forever” but in the same way the men also explicitly prayerfully addressed the righteous dead, “the spirits and souls of the just,” asking them to “bless the Lord, praise and exalt him forever.” (Daniel 3:86) Also, in the fuller Catholic Scriptures, in the book of Sirach, the deceased Moses was prayerfully addressed at length (Sirach 47:14-20), as was Elijah who was taken up to heaven. (Sirach 48:4-11)
Thus, according to Scripture, there is nothing wrong in prayerfully addressing others in heaven besides God, as long as you remember that they are not gods but only God’s friends and that they can do nothing apart from God, nothing contrary to God’s will.
In the fuller Catholic Scriptures, even in death Elisha performed miracles, “marvelous deeds” (Sirach 48:14), probably including raising a dead man to life. (2 Kings 13:21) In the fuller Catholic Scriptures, at least two of the righteous dead, namely Onias and Jeremiah, are described as praying for the living. (2 Maccabees 15:11-16) Thus, since, according to Scripture, it is ok to prayerfully address the righteous dead and since they are able and willing and permitted by God to perform miracles and to otherwise pray for the living, there is no real justification for faulting Catholics in this matter.
Hey, I hate to finesse my way into here, but while we’re on the topic of the Blessed Virgin, can you guys pray for me (That my prayers may be heard and granted). Hopefully this isn’t breaking any rules since it’s still connected to prayers and Mary. I’ll pray for you all too if you want.
I have, yes. We are clearly told to pray for one another. You can ask any one to pray for you. I’m sure you ask people to pray for you all the time. Scripture says the prayer of a righteous person avails much. Who is more righteous than Mary? I’m sure when she asks Jesus for something he listens.
I must mention that there is clear prophecy in the Deuterocanon (apocrypha) about Christ, I’m new to believing in the Catholic Church and would like the person you responded to to read wisdom chapter two. Sorry, I just realized you quoted Catholic scriptures but didn’t give @savedbyfaith1 any reason to believe the deuterocanon is scripture so I thought I might give a shot at convincing them.
Let us lie in wait for the righteous one, because he is annoying to us; he opposes our actions, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the Lord . To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like that of others, and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the righteous and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him in the end. For if the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With violence and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”
Wisdom 2:12-20 NABRE
This book of the deuterocanon was written 50 years before Christ
As an image or figure of the Church, Mary embodies the life we hope for in Christ. She is the embodiment of that hope and that life (and the sweetness of it). She receives the gifts of the Lord before us–she is given the life of grace first in her Immaculate Conception, and she receives the bodily resurrection, our hope, first in her Assumption. She shows us the fruits of faith.
Like the Church, she is our mother and therefore nourishes us with the gifts of salvation won by her Son. As the Church teaches, “This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 62)
Beloved, praying for someone and praying to someone are completely different. Scripture says to pray FOR one another, not TO one another. Mary is not God. She was blessed to be the mother of Jesus, but she was a sinner and a human being; we should strive to be like her, as she was humble and knew she needed a Savior (Luke 1:46-55, Romans 3:23).
We have only one God. God is everywhere and can hear our prayers; Mary is not everywhere and cannot hear our prayers. There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Since all love and wisdom comes from God, since only God is good, and since Jesus died for our sins so that we could be forgiven, we should seek him for forgiveness, protection, love, power over sin, strength and all good things. To seek Mary for those things is to be idolatrous because it is treating her as though she is God and those good things come from her. Please read Jeremiah 44 with regard to the Queen of Heaven. There is nothing new under the sun. We SO need to be Bereans (Acts 17:10-11).
I am with you, I never say it either. It is part of the “Marianism” that exists in the Church and sometimes it is too much. She is to be admired and respected as the mother of God, but I do not place my salvation in her hands. The way I see it is our Protestant brothers and sisters show her little to no concern and sometimes we Catholics show her too much. She has her place in the salvation narrative, but I just cringe at prayers such as this and words like “co-redemptrix”.
That’s not what we as Catholics believe. The Ark of the New Covenant was not blemished by impurities of sin.
As for not being able to hear our prayers, what do all of the passages in Revelation about Prayers of the Saints mean?
Are the personages like Mary dead, or are they like the Scriptures tell us still alive in Christ just like we are?
Yes, one mediator. But if I ask you to pray for me, aren’t you “mediating” for me to God? According to you, I don’t really need your prayers because I should go directly to God myself.
Once again: Praying FOR someone is different that praying TO someone. Seeking from Mary what can only come from God is idolatry. Jesus made a way for us (the curtain to the Holy of Holies ripped in two when Jesus died) to have a relationship with God. He mediated the New Covenant, not Mary. Those who have that relationship with God know that God is the only one that can provide power over sin, power to know his love more, forgiveness, and all other good things. Because I love my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I pray TO GOD for them. Because I love unbelievers, I pray TO GOD for their salvation. I can pray to God because Jesus made a way for me to boldly come before God.
Mary is not God. She sinned like everyone else. That is why she referred to God as her Savior (Luke 1:47). Scripture says "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 1:23). To say that Mary is sinless is to say she has as much glory (goodness) as God. On my goodness, please don’t do that. Only Jesus was sinless because Jesus is God. Read Romans 1 to find out what can happen when people worship created things rather than the Creator. Peruse the Old Testament to find out what happened to the Israelites every time they fell into idolatry. Have you read Jeremiah 44 yet?
Check out everything you hear from your teachers with the Word of God! False teachers abound! Jesus warned us about them.
Most importantly, learn the true way of salvation. Read John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-5, Galatians (in its entirely), Hebrews 10, Romans (at least up until chapter 6). Believe God; not man.
Jesus was a man (And God but still a man), yet those passages do not apply to him. Mary was, again, the Ark of the New Covenant, and greater than Eve in every way. How could the Ark be blemished by sin?
The grammar is not always accepted in the way you wrote it.
I think your way is fine and the other way is also fine for all the reasons people already explained in the thread.
In my experience, people who have some hangup about not wanting to somehow fall into “worshipping Mary” worry a lot about every little word and comma in these prayers, and overthink the entire thing.
People who are comfortable with hyperdulia towards Mary, never considered it worship, worship only God, and grew up saying the prayers don’t think twice about saying the prayer.
It’s all in your attitude. People who want to have a problem with Mary will have one regardless of the words of a prayer.
Catholics are not supposed to seek forgiveness of sins from Mary. We do not ask for her grace. We only ask for her prayers, giving her the reverence due to the spiritual mother of us all.
How about both? And the commandment still stands.