hamba2han's Quranic challange


#1

I’ll offer this even though it was not intended as a direct response to the Quran.

"“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it’s uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.”- Iluvatar- JRR Tolkien- The Silmarillion pg 17


#2

It got to be in Arabic to compare.:smiley:

I posted to Hamba the site

suralikeit.com/

for him to compare, with the challenge that if he couldn’t prove they weren’t suras like it, then he’d admit challenge met. Otherwise we could interpret his silence as admission, and ignore any future repitions of his charge.


#3

The challange is not met and seems will never be met, as we do not see any challenger’s book/claim overcoming Koran and taking the place of Koran. Koran is still there with billions of it’s adherants for last 1400 years. It is as simple as this.


#4

first off, the sura like it link is meant to be a challenge. Why did it not meet the challenge? because you are muslim right?:slight_smile:

A Mormon claimed the same thing about their book and they have millions adherents.


#5

The challenge had already been met - except that Muslims do not even realize that. It is likely that 2 suras were written by an unnamed Christian scribe who wrote for Muhammad. If Muslims can’t tell that they were inventions of that Christian, then it proves that this unnamed Christian had met the sura-like-it challenge.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4 Hadith 814
3421. It is related that Anas said, “There was a Christian man who became Muslim and recited al-Baqara and Ali 'Imran. He used to act as a scribe for the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Then he reverted to being a Christian and he used to say, ‘Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him.’ Allah made him die and they buried him. In the morning, the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They dug our companion up and threw him out.’ So they dug a very deep grave and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They threw him out.’ So they dug a grave for him as deep as they could and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. So they knew that it was not done by people so they left him [there].”


#6

Based on you being a Moslem? (though not stated in your profile)

Pro_universal’s already blown apart the challenge. He conceded that any poem in Gaelic can’t be read by him, because he can’t speak that language, and therefore I can put any poem forward and he can’t judge the Koran to be better! He can’t translate it either, or else it misses it’s true ‘meaning’ in Gaelic.

Based on that criteria the bible wins, by being older and having more followers.


#7

As I have mentioned in another thread, this challenge is not meant to be an excuse to engage in frivolous debate but rather, it is meant to guide those who are sincere in their desire to examine and decide for themselves whether or not the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

In this regard, the “suras” presented at suralikeit.com/ is a prime example of insincerity on the part of the presenters of that website for it is just so obvious that they have copied and modified portions of the Qur’an and also the hadiths and then joined them together to form “new” suras.

This is just so ridiculously dishonest that it beggars belief.

Remember the challenge?

If the Mankind and the Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.
(Al-Qur’an 17:88)

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24)

The challenge was for all of humankind and the jinn to come together and produce a sura and call on any witnesses or helpers besides Allah to produce a sura like that found in the Qur’an.

Now then, if people are going to copy portions of the Qur’an and the hadiths and remixing them together in order to produce these suras, then they are surely relying on Allah and His Messenger to construct these “new” suras, aren’t they?

These people are only cheating themselves if they are claiming to have met this challenge by blatantly cheating in such an absurd manner.

After all, one cannot claim to have produced another ‘Mona Lisa’ simply by scanning the original in black and white and then apply slightly different colours, tones and textures to the copied image as can be done so easily nowadays with computers.

Like I said, this challenge is only meaningful to those with sincerity in their hearts, for it is they themselves who will reap the greatest benefit imaginable from their discovery of the Truth, not their Creator who has absolutely no need for anything that His creations can offer Him.


#8

But the ‘challenge’ is already met, as noted above by Pro_universal’s admission


#9

#10

The seekers of the Truth themselves… and also their Creator of course.


#11

and if the seeker of the truth sincerely did not find it miraculous?


#12

The answer is in the Qur’an.

002.256
**Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. **

Correct guidance is only given to those who choose to believe and have Taqwa i.e. fear of Allah:

006:035
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant

041:044
Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!”

In other words, it does not matter what signs are shown to them for those who choose not to believe will never be satisfied by the truth of the Qur’an.


#13

then you are accusing them of being insincere.


#14

You’re overcounting a bit.
As for taking the place of Quran, thats not the point. Its strictly on a sura like it.
I’ve known many adherents of the Quran who left it for the Bible. Btw this includes all the descendants of Jinah, the founder of Pakistan, because whose birthday (December 25th) Christmas is the national holiday for the muslim state. Allah surely has a sense of humor.
Also having a sword to back up your claims hasn’t hurt.
So again just on literary merits (which is the challenge I believe, not truth, prophecy, whatever) why are they not suras like it?


#15

actually I like your Mona Lisa example.

But we can tell the difference why the Mona Lisa is a masterpiece (the realism of the hand, the acuracy of the shading, the skin tones, the quality of the brush strokes, the mastery of the techniques of the art school etc.).
But we are still waiting for the criteria of what makes a sura a sura, and on what to judge success or failure.
Btw since a sura is a sura is sura, since they are all suras like it, then they should all be on the same level of beauty. Are they?


#16

There are plenty for whom the chose is made.

Remember Abd Al-Rahman, the Afghan convert to Christianity? He is only one among many, and their many more but for the law of apostacy, which is enforced in many muslim countries.


#17

So in other words, everyone is insincere but muslims.


#18

I agree. If forced to the choice, I’d take Tolkien over Muhammad as a prophet any day!

Edwin


#19

that’s because you are not sincere.Unless you believe it is miraculous, then yu are insincere as per Quran’s objectif verdict.


#20

This challenge to produce a Sura like it is by no means a subjective one and can in fact be tested objectively.

The following is an excerpt from an article:

The Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the ‘rhyme’. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning ‘The Seas’. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria’. Each one rhymes differently.

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called “rhymed prose” or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.

So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.


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