Hands or above wrist?


#21

Vatican City, 30 March 2013 (VIS) – From 5:15pm until 6:40 this afternoon, there will be an extraordinary exposition of the Holy Shroud in the Cathedral of Turin, Italy. The initiative is part of the Year of Faith that was proclaimed by Pope Benedict XVI and will be broadcast by the Italian television channel, RAI1.
For the occasion, Pope Francis recorded a video message, the text of which we offer below.


“Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I join all of you gathered before the Holy Shroud, and I thank the Lord who, through modern technology, offers us this possibility.”

“Even if it takes place in this way, our gaze is not a mere 'observing', but rather a veneration. It is a prayerful gaze. I would go further: It is a letting ourselves be looked upon. This Face has eyes that are closed. It is the face of one who is dead and yet, mysteriously, He is watching us and in silence He speaks to us. How is this possible? How is it that the faithful, like you, pause before this Icon of a man who has been scourged and crucified? It is because the Man of the Shroud invites us to contemplate Jesus of Nazareth. This image, impressed upon the cloth, speaks to our hearts and moves us to climb the hill of Calvary, to look upon the wood of the Cross, and to immerse ourselves in the eloquent silence of love.”

“Let us therefore allow ourselves to be reached by this gaze, which is directed not to our eyes but to our hearts. In silence, let us listen to what He has to say to us from beyond death itself. By means of the Holy Shroud, the unique and supreme Word of God comes to us: Love made man, incarnate in our history; the merciful Love of God who has taken upon himself all the evil of the world in order to free us from its power. This disfigured Face resembles all those faces of men and women marred by a life that does not respect their dignity, by war and the violence that afflict the weakest… And yet, the Face of the Shroud conveys a great peace. This tortured body expresses a sovereign majesty. It is as if it let a restrained but powerful energy within it shine through, as if to tell us: have faith; do not lose hope; the power of God's love, the power of the Risen One, conquers all.”

“So, looking upon the Man of the Shroud, I make Saint Francis of Assisi's prayer before the Crucifix my own: 'Most High and glorious God, enlighten the darkness of my heart, and grant me true faith, certain hope, and perfect charity, sense and understanding, Lord, so that I may carry out your holy and true command. Amen.'”


For ajecphotos -- I like your signature line -- I will look in my book about the ropes for the arms/ But I doubt that the excutioners on Good Friday showed any mercy by relieving part of the body weight of Our Lord.

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#22

Great post above. Thanks for sharing it :thumbsup:


#23

(please see post #17)

THE APPARENT ABSENCE OF THE THUMBS ON THE SHROUD
On page 24 of the Resurrection of the Shroud:

“…When a nail is driven in the Space of Destot, the median nerve controlling the thumb is injured and stimulated, automatically causing the thumb to contract inward and lie across the palm. Injury to the median nerve, then, would account for the anatomical reaction visible on the Shroud.”


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From page 2 of the book showing the "absence" of the thumbs


Here is the action of the thumb when the median nerve is activated:

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When viewing the hand from the dorsal side, the thumb would appear to be absent...

As a physician who has performed and observed many treatments with median nerve electrical stimulation at the wrist – I agree thumb action would account for the “hiding” of the thumb. Presumably the movement might come from the injury, irritation, and proximity of the two nails on the cross through the base of each hand and exiting from the part of the wrist close to the hand. Then with rigor mortis, the thumb would still be contracted at the moment of the Resurrection when the image was made on the burial cloth.

Again, my comment: Why would any artist in the Middle Ages paint a man with four fingers and no thumbs? How would the artist know the neuromuscular functions of the hand?


#24

Thank you Norwich!

This is top shelf Grade A input.

So tell me, in your professional experience, could the Crucifixion nail have been driven in through the palm, and exit out the back of the wrist (through Destot's Space) without breaking any bones?

Per Psalms 34:20 none of Our Lord's bones were broken. Just as no bones of the Passover Lamb were to be broken. Num. 9:12
Your input is so very valuable and appreciated

Thank you!.


#25

For practicality, the Romans would have more likely done it through the wrists, and if
the Gospels say "hands", I don't find that to be an issue, because I don't think the Gospels
specify "hands" as "palms", "wrist" probably would have been part of the definition of "hand".


#26

[quote="Judas_Thaddeus, post:25, topic:324289"]
For practicality, the Romans would have more likely done it through the wrists, and if
the Gospels say "hands", I don't find that to be an issue, because I don't think the Gospels
specify "hands" as "palms", "wrist" probably would have been part of the definition of "hand".

[/quote]

In fact, in Hebrew and Greek, the word for hand denotes the entire upper limb; there is no contradiction.

ICXC NIKA


#27

Thank you -- anatomical names can mean different things depending on
the country or the doctor or the public.

"leg" can mean "lower extremity"-- or "lower leg"
as opposed to "thigh."


#28

[quote="BowmanTryb, post:24, topic:324289"]
Thank you Norwich!

This is top shelf Grade A input.

So tell me, in your professional experience, could the Crucifixion nail have been driven in through the palm, and exit out the back of the wrist (through Destot's Space) without breaking any bones?

Per Psalms 34:20 none of Our Lord's bones were broken. Just as no bones of the Passover Lamb were to be broken. Num. 9:12
Your input is so very valuable and appreciated

Thank you!.

[/quote]


Thank YOU BowmanTryb-- for the A grade and for starting the thread.

I have thought a lot about your hard questions.

As a surgeon, I have never performed an equivalent operation - - trying to blindly pass a spike through a hand or wrist. So I do not have an intelligent answer.

As a believer, if God willed that no bones be broken, they were not.

In John 19:32-33 (New American Bible) there is an account of the soldiers breaking the legs of the first man and the third man:

But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not
break his legs.


#29

Tomorrow I will make my most important post:

A MEDICAL SECRET OF THE SHROUD

Dominus vobiscum,

Norwich12


#30

[quote="Norwich12, post:29, topic:324289"]
Tomorrow I will make my most important post:

A MEDICAL SECRET OF THE SHROUD

Dominus vobiscum,

Norwich12

[/quote]

Looking forward to your post


#31

Thank you ajecphotos. As a neuro- researcher, it all began for me about 20 years ago.
I realized then that the nail entry site (of the Shroud Man) on the right hand/wrist was the best place for electrodes on young injured patients.

In severe brain injury with deep coma, it was possible to electrically communicate with the injured brainstem and cerebrum via the pathway of the median nerve and spinal cord in an upward direction.

More later today...


#32

Jesus and the Unconscious Girl

While he was still speaking, someone from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer."

On hearing this, Jesus answered him, "Do not be afraid; just have faith and she will be saved."

When he arrived at the house he allowed no one to enter with him except Peter and John and James, and the child's father and mother.

All were weeping and mourning for her, when he said, "Do not weep any longer, for she is not dead, but sleeping."

And they ridiculed him, because they knew that she was dead.

But he took her by the hand and called to her, "Child, arise!"

Her breath returned and she immediately arose. He then directed that she should be given something to eat.

Her parents were astounded, and he instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

LUKE 8:49-56 (New American Bible)


I have participated in some university medical center approved research projects involving electrical stimulation for severe brain injury (USA, Japan, and China). Occasionally dramatic results can be seen where electrical pulses transmitted through the wrist tell the brain to wake up. Not once like Jesus did--- but million times of times over a 2-3 week treatment period. The results have never been conclusively proved.

An example can be found in the media about a boy whom I have never met. I never consulted or advised the doctors about his case. He had a very unusual cause of his brain injury in 2006. I cannot present the results.

But if you are interested, please google the words “A-Rod rouses boy.” The 7 year old article is in a northeastern newspaper. But if you google the boy’s name, you can find many informative articles in the New York Times, Sports Illustrated, and other major sources. I am proud of his progress.


#33

[quote="Norwich12, post:32, topic:324289"]
Jesus and the Unconscious Girl

While he was still speaking, someone from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer."

On hearing this, Jesus answered him, "Do not be afraid; just have faith and she will be saved."

When he arrived at the house he allowed no one to enter with him except Peter and John and James, and the child's father and mother.

All were weeping and mourning for her, when he said, "Do not weep any longer, for she is not dead, but sleeping."

And they ridiculed him, because they knew that she was dead.

But he took her by the hand and called to her, "Child, arise!"

Her breath returned and she immediately arose. He then directed that she should be given something to eat.

Her parents were astounded, and he instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

LUKE 8:49-56 (New American Bible)


I have participated in some university medical center approved research projects involving electrical stimulation for severe brain injury (USA, Japan, and China). Occasionally dramatic results can be seen where electrical pulses transmitted through the wrist tell the brain to wake up. Not once like Jesus did--- but million times of times over a 2-3 week treatment period. The results have never been conclusively proved.

An example can be found in the media about a boy whom I have never met. I never consulted or advised the doctors about his case. He had a very unusual cause of his brain injury in 2006. I cannot present the results.

But if you are interested, please google the words “A-Rod rouses boy.” The 7 year old article is in a northeastern newspaper. But if you google the boy’s name, you can find many informative articles in the New York Times, Sports Illustrated, and other major sources. I am proud of his progress.

[/quote]

Don't understand why this was poster? Explanation would be good. What are you trying to say?


#34

Sorry ajecphotos-- I didn't mean to be vague or off the subject.
I was answering my own preview from yesterday that I Thought I had
discovered (~ 20 years ago) a medical secret or clues in the wrist images on the
Shroud. The absence of thumbs meant the median nerves had been irritated.
My research interest is electrical stimulation of the median nerve to Try to wake
up patients in an apparently hopeless coma -- like the example in 3 of the 4 Gospels.

I see you are in the UK. Well 4-5 years ago there was an article in the
journal Nature about astounding research at the University of Cambridge.
They did functional MRI's on persons in the vegetative state and found
that some of them had the ability to think and make decisions.
That introduced the subject of DBS= deep brain stimulation with attempts to wake
up people in those long term states.

I gave a talk at an international neuroscience meeting at Cambridge in 2
2009.
My subject was median nerve stimulation for coma treatment.
Awakening from coma is sort of a resurrection.
"by his wounds we are healed" ( from 1st Peter).
I suppose I was trying to tie too many mysteries together!
Thank you.


#35

BowmanTryb-- as you started this great thread going on 4 months ago--

May we take a vote about the aunthencity of the Shroud of Turin?
That way more members could give opinions.

Clearly I think it was the burial cloth of Jesus.
Plus the image -- so anatomically correct and almost like
an X- ray -- gives scientific proof of the intense radiation of
Resurrection Light. Important now with the recent encyclical:
Lumen Fidei.


#36

I for one would love to believe it is Our Lord.


#37

[quote="ajecphotos, post:36, topic:324289"]
I for one would love to believe it is Our Lord.

[/quote]

I do believe it.

It is not proven, but it cannot be disproven, either.

Like the Israeli landmarks of His life, this is IMNAAHO just a beautiful physical trace of HIM.

ICXC NIKA


#38

ICXC NIKA---Thank you for giving your imprimatur.

" Jesus Christ Conquers "

Next I will post a very important article from Duke
University.
(I am a triple alumnus).

It will describe research by a physician that does place
the Turin Shroud in the first century.


#39

I think this a wonderful idea.

I DO truly believe the Shroud of Turin to be the authentic burial shroud of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No, it can not be proven - nor can it be dis-proven. With all of our modern day science, we must still just have faith.

Great thread all.

Shane


#40

Everything points to it being of Our Lord.


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