Harsh Questions for Catholics and Christians


#1

I “lost my faith” , as some would say, about eight or ten years ago, my faith in the divinity of the man upon whom the “Christ” mythology is based at least. I do believe in a God, a Supreme Life-Force or Deity, to which we are all (whether we like it or not) subject. Some “thing” , One, Transcendent , Abstract, Incomprehensible really, which is the “force” behind all of Nature, all of science and evolution, etc. All human beings are born with direct “access” to “Him / It”, and all of us are automatically capable of being forgiven or reconciled to It, without any intercessors, and certainly without any bloody sacrifices or burnt offerings. All human beings also are born and live inherently subject to “Its Will” or “Its Nature”. We have no choice. In this very real sense, we are all , whether we like it or realize it or not, Muslims. We are all “surrendered” or in a state of submission to “Gods Will”.
People ask, rhetorically, “What Would Jesus Do?” Well , in my opinion, what Jesus would do , were he somehow able to be magically brought back to life in this day and age, would be search out the nearest Orthodox Jewish shul, or perhaps find his way towards Crown Heights , Brooklyn, and fall in with a group much more in agreement with and akin to who / what he himself truly was and held dear. A group like the Chabad-Lubavitcher , or perhaps the Satu-Mar , hasidim, for example. That is, in my honest opinion, exactly what Jesus would do. He would pray for the salvation of his people, the Jewish people. He would pray for the coming of the Messiah , just as he did when he lived, so that the “kingdom of God” could begin on Earth.
He would probably be appalled , again having been a devout and truly Monotheistic Semite, at the thought or sight of hordes of the distant descendants of what were, in his own day, untouchable pagan “goyim”, hairy uncivilized (and uncircumsized) barbarians from the North, worshiping HIM as God, or as the literal “son of God”. He would be appalled that weekly they (or some of them at least) do gather in buildings that are chock-full of “graven images” and pray to him and even to his mother (as though either of them were/are God) , and then proceed, at the high point of the ceremony, to symbolically consume a piece of his flesh and a draught of his blood.
* How * could you imagine that this man, Yeshua of Nazaret, this Galilean hasid , could possibly have wanted to see himself end up as the GOD of a Roman-led sect ( Roman of all things) , presided over by a (conspicuously “Caesar-esque” ) pontifex maximus who carries around with him, amongst all of his gaudy gold and jewelry and other “adornments”, a “graven image” of him in his death throes on a Roman cross ??? Talk about adding insult to injury for the poor man.
And what if he were to somehow be made privy to, filled in about, all that had happened in Europe, over the ages, since his death, what had happened to his own people , his own beloved fellow Jews?? And at the hands, so often, of people claiming to be acting “in his name” and / or because “they” had “killed him” ?? What do you think he might make of “Christ-ianity” then, considering all of the pogroms and purges culminating of course in that grotesque orgy of violence and systematic extermination which went on throughout central Europe in the late 1930’s to mid 1940’s ?? Do you think he might be grateful then, that “St.Paul” , a co-religionist of his, had, following his death on that Roman cross, brought the Jewish idea of “the Messiah” to these Gentiles’ ancestors, and set them on a course to form their own new faith based upon it ?? Or do you think he might wish his mother had miscarried him instead ?? I personally tend to think the latter would be more true.
I would like to hear how Catholics, even a Catholic priest or nun, if there are any here, would try to debate this. And don’t just say, “one has to view it with the eyes of faith” or some such thing. That’s not really an answer after all. It’s more of a shortcut through actually having to think, actually having to ponder the potentially devastating psychological effects of such ideas.
If you want to truly believe in God the same way that Jesus believed in God, you’d have to be either a devout Jew, or perhaps a Muslim, or maybe simply a Unitarian. But you can not , ironically, be a Christ-ian and do so. And you certainly cannot be a Roman Catholic Christ-ian and feel that you are following the real Jesus’s “wishes” or “example” as to how to worship or believe in God.
Any serious answers or rebuttals to any of this ?? (That is IF this post even escapes the Catholic censorship here ??)


#2

Maybe you could pick one point to start with. To answer all of this would take a book. I can suggest several.


#3

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I’m having a hard time finding the question in your rambling.

Was it that Jesus would be offended that non-Jews are trying to have a relationship with the Creator?

The rest just seemed to be a monologue that Jesus was not the Messiah and really just an ordinary Jew of his time and place and thus would be offended that He has been held up as the promised Messiah.


#4

My only response is that you have made a lot of erroneous assumptions and based your opinions on them. Bad idea. Truth ought to lead you into more truth not into useless speculations about things you know little or nothing about. :wink:

And there is no “Catholic censorship” here. The only censorship is for lewd comments and rude behavior, which you will find at any decent message forum. :whistle:


#5

We could start with the first 2 sentences. He rejects Christ and embraces a “life force” god. I guess I would ask what revelation he has had in which this life force has revealed itself and why I should believe him?

PS: Perhaps he will be relieved to know I am circumsized, but I plead guilty to being hairy and from the north.


#6

Your post will not be censored. This forum was built specifically for questions like yours. :slight_smile:

Do you believe in the Bible as a source of true information? You must believe in at least part of the Bible because you seem to regard the Jewish people as God’s Chosen People. I ask you this because Jesus directly proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God. He did not speak figuratively, He spoke specifically. Because He loved the whole human race, He came to renew God’s covenant with His people, so that everyone could enter into Eternal Happiness. He sealed this covenant with the shedding of His blood on Calvary, providing satisfaction for the sins of everyone who has ever lived.

I don’t know if I misunderstood your meaning of a “Roman-led sect,” but Christianity was led by a Jewish fisherman, Simon-Peter. He moved the center of the Church to Rome when he traveled there as a missionary.

A final point I would like to make is that Catholics do not pray to Mary, we pray THROUGH HER INTERCESSION. Because she is in heaven, she herself can offer up her own prayers on our behalf. :slight_smile:

Peace,
Trevor


#7

I’ll tackle this from a different perspective.

OK, let’s take it for granted that Jesus was simply a Hasid, waiting for the Messiah, continuing Jewish tradition as it had been practiced.

Why assume that Jesus was omniscient? Why assume that Jesus knew who he really was? Why assume that Jesus knew what God the Father had planned to do, or not do, in the future? Maybe Jesus would have been appalled – not at what the Romans did, but at what God the Father did after his crucifixion? You could imagine Jesus saying, “Abba, you tricked me. I thought I was just your regular, Abrahamic devotee. But nooooo…you had to reveal to the world that I was indeed the Messiah, nay, the Second Person of the Trinity – something I had rejected as idolatry, a pagan infection of pristine monotheism. Of course, you did all this without my human mind being aware of it! You were pulling my leg all the while, thinking that you were simply One, when you were actually Three-In-One. Oh vey!.. You rascal you!” :smiley:

God always has a few tricks up his sleave.


#8

Made privy ? :ehh: Jesus is already privy to this information.

And at the hands, so often, of people claiming to be acting “in his name” and / or because “they” had “killed him” ?? What do you think he might make of “Christ-ianity” then, considering all of the pogroms and purges culminating of course in that grotesque orgy of violence and systematic extermination which went on throughout central Europe in the late 1930’s to mid 1940’s ??

I’m assuming Jesus isn’t pleased.

Do you think he might be grateful then,  that "St.Paul" ,  a co-religionist of his,  had, following his death on that Roman cross,  brought the Jewish idea of "the Messiah" to these Gentiles' ancestors,   and set them on a course to form their own new faith based upon it ??    Or do you think he might wish his mother had miscarried him instead ?? 

What a grotesque statement, some people just don’t get it------it WAS God that died on the Cross.

I personally tend to think the latter would be more true.

Hypothetical.

I would like to hear how Catholics, even a Catholic priest or nun, if there are any here, would try to debate this. And don’t just say, “one has to view it with the eyes of faith” or some such thing. That’s not really an answer after all. It’s more of a shortcut through actually having to think, actually having to ponder the potentially devastating psychological effects of such ideas.

Calvary 3 days later was a great faith booster for the Apostles, although some thought that Jesus was here to rule as a King here on earth, maybe that’s is why Judas betrayed Jesus.
Jesus didn’t say everything was going to be all sweetness and light, He told His followers that they would be thrown in prison and some put to death.

If you want to truly believe in God the same way that Jesus believed in God, you’d have to be either a devout Jew, or perhaps a Muslim, or maybe simply a Unitarian. But you can not , ironically, be a Christ-ian and do so. And you certainly cannot be a Roman Catholic Christ-ian and feel that you are following the real Jesus’s “wishes” or “example” as to how to worship or believe in God.

No-one goes to the father except through Jesus, so I guess being a Christian is very important.
Who is Jesus ? Phillip asked Him a question.

John 14:8** Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.**

Any serious answers or rebuttals to any of this ?? (That is IF this post even escapes the Catholic censorship here ??)

I’m guessing your trying to find out why some acts of violence are attributed to Christ, or done in His name.
Well God will judge those in time, some being blinded I expect, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Then again if your brother or sister sins and it leaves your faith in tatters, then maybe it’s a sign of weak faith, not planted in fertile soil, like this parable.

Matt:1318 **Hear you therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, there cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart: this is he that received the seed by the way side. 20 And he that received the seed upon stony ground, is he that heareth the word, and immediately receiveth it with joy.

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but is only for a time: and when there ariseth tribulation and persecution because of the word, he is presently scandalized. 22 And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless. **
More

I think the parable of the sower fits in with what your going through, and the sower is offcourse none-other than satan himself.


#9

I “lost my faith” , as some would say, about eight or ten years ago, my faith in the divinity of the man upon whom the “Christ” mythology is based at least. I do believe in a God, a Supreme Life-Force or Deity, to which we are all (whether we like it or not) subject.

How did you loose your faith? I cannot believe that you did. I think you are testing your faith . So are you a Diest? Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity and sometimes this is hard to digest. I don’t think it fair to make such insulting comments about our Catholic faith. Just remember God sent his only son to us so all (including you) may receive salvation. The Jews rejected God’s son and the gentiles accepted him. So, we are co-heirs with the Jews. We believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Are faith is built on tradition and we have 2000 plus years of tradition.


#10

Interesting questions for someone who put “Roman Catholic” for their religion in their profile. Were you once Catholic, but still feel an attachment to the Church? God bless you in your search for truth! :slight_smile:


#11

I was baptized Roman Catholic, to “the lambic Pen” (which I had no choice in, obviously), and went to 8 years of Catholic grammar school.

Clearly something didn’t “take” during all of that long drawn out “catechism”, I suppose.

I put Roman Catholic in there because I thought one had to be a Catholic, or at least former Catholic, to post here.

“Maureen Fiore”, I could be considered a Deist in a way I suppose, or a non-Christian Unitarian perhaps, but to be honest in June of 2003 I made the “shahadah” (Islamic confession of faith) in front of a mosque full of Muslim witnesses. Now I am far from being the most observant Muslim (although I do eschew pork and alcohol however) , I rarely attend a masjid, but I have found in the simple declaration of what the Arabs call “tauhid”, the pure Oneness of God, true Semitic monotheism (which is , as I said, the tradition which we know the historical Jesus would have believed in), a tremendous peace and simplicity which I did not, could not, ever find in the folds of Catholicism, trying to twist my mind around the “three in one” , the creedal notion of “homousios”, the “virgin conception”, the “resurrection from the dead” after three days, the “Transubstantiation”, etc etc.

When I do pray, I pray in Arabic, facing Mecca, if not always the prescribed five times a day, then at least usually “framing” my days with prayers (as observant Jews do as well) with a set at the beginning and at the end, and always trying to find some time before going to bed at night to meditate on the different qualities of “the One” (and only) God, as the Sufis do. Am I truly a 100% believer in all of the Islamic “dogma” ?? Technically no, I must admit. I have my own personal views on all of it. So I’m far from being a “fundamentalist”. Certainly there are, amongst the more devout Muslims (whom I’ve always been turned off by in my contacts with), those who might even say I’m NOT a Muslim, or not a “good” Muslim. But in true Islam it is not believed that any Muslim can lawfully “declare” someone else to be a non-believer. That is between the individual and God. But then also I know quite a few born Muslims who are not even half as religiously observant as I am.

Overall, the thing that I find most attractive about it is its simplicity , its lack of hierarchies, etc., its natural openness and welcoming attitude (any one of you could go to a mosque tomorrow and be made to feel very welcome, even if you just wanted to sit and watch) and the ease and lack of formality with which one can become a Muslim. My main key point of agreement, where I’m most enthusiastic about it , is its unbending adherence to what I personally believe to be the best way to worship : pure Monotheism, in the tradition of the Jews who , after all, did it first did it best and are still at it.

There are only two true Monotheisms: Judaism, and Islam. Christianity , with its excessive veneration of a deceased human being, even though he was clearly an inspired spiritual man, a great prophet in his own right, and furthermore with its belief in the “Trinity”, is not true monotheism at all.

Incidentally, I don’t think I have yet seen any real , non faith-based, “contra” debating points presented to the points that I brought up.

To simplify: How do you square the fact, as I asked in my original post, that the man Jesus, the historical individual whom the faith is based upon, would (as anyone who objectively studies religion will state) almost SURELY never have believed himself to be, stated himself to be, or wanted himself to be considered by future generations of Jews ( and incidentally his ministry WAS really only TO his fellow Jews; he was disinterested, at best, in Gentiles) the literal “son of God”, or any kind of “manifestation” or fleshly “incarnation” of God.


#12

To “cestusdei”, what “revelation” did I have of a “life force” God? Basically, I was “seduced” , so to speak, by a few different factors which led to my spiritual re-awakening as a Monotheist rather than a Trinitarian polytheist. During my time in military service I spent a good deal of time in Dubai , and of course visited the neighboring Emirates (all much poorer, with the exception of Abu Dhabi). Then I went to Egypt and Morocco (that was on my own time). In all of these Islamic countries, the muezzin’s call to prayer is what got me. It got into my soul, I have to say, and to this day, I can say it’s one of the most beautiful religious “songs” or “sounds” I have yet to hear. And I grew up hearing Catholic church songs every Sunday and holy day of obligation. There was / is , for me at least, no comparison. Even the most sublime Gregorian chants pale in comparison. So I came back from that area with not only sun-browned skin, but with a new interest in the faith of Islam as I saw it being practiced over there. Think of this one small example : all the shops actually close, so that people can spend some time being spiritual, at the same time, every single day. We have so lost anything resembling that kind of spirituality here in the West that it is pathetic. I suppose there was a time when Christendom had something of the same “fervour” or “spirit” that Islam has today, but it’s been gone for hundreds of years. Though it may not appear this way today, in Islam’s “dark ages” (which are, sadly, right now), Islam is the religion of the future. Look up the numbers alone; they speak for themselves. And as to why should you believe me… you shouldn’t. You should continue on your own path, as I’m sure you will. As the Prophet Muhammad said, “Let there be no compulsion in religion.”


#13

LOL… Only a muslim would call Muhammad the selfproclaimed ‘prophet’… so dsaint is a muslim. do doubt. :smiley:


#14

Is he really a muslim? He forgot his (PBUH)! :eek:


#15

[quote=Isidore_AK]Is he really a muslim? He forgot his (PBUH)! :eek:
[/quote]

Sssttt… (he is a muslim pretend to be the lost catholic… believe me…you guys are being lied :smiley: )


#16

Unfortunately your understanding is not right. The term *Son of God * in Jesus’/Jewish terms, is figuratively and not literally. Otherwise "Ye are gods" means all Jews are literally gods and their status is more than Jesus because Jesus is The Father’s son and even if you think he is the only begotten one or unique…still he is not The Father (God). In your Trinity dogma, the Son is always the second person and The Father is not equal to The Son nor the Holy Spirit.

John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

Since you have lost the original sayings of Jesus in his native langauge, it is more difficult for you to understand the each translated term. The only option left is to go by the context and see similar examples in the Old Testament. No Jew in his right mind believe in God becoming a man. It is a blasphemy. It is against the Torah.


#17

[quote=freedomm]Unfortunately your understanding is not right. The term *Son of God * in Jesus’/Jewish terms, is figuratively and not literally. Otherwise "Ye are gods" means all Jews are literally gods and their status is more than Jesus because Jesus is The Father’s son and even if you think he is the only begotten one or unique…still he is not The Father (God). In your Trinity dogma, the Son is always the second person and The Father is not equal to The Son nor the Holy Spirit.

John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

Since you have lost the original sayings of Jesus in his native langauge, it is more difficult for you to understand the each translated term. The only option left is to go by the context and see similar examples in the Old Testament. No Jew in his right mind believe in God becoming a man. It is a blasphemy. It is against the Torah.
[/quote]

:whistle: :whistle:


#18

Matthew 23:1-11

1 **Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, **

2 **Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: **

3 **All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. **

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 **But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. **

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.



#19

[quote=dsaint]I
Overall, the thing that I find most attractive about it is its simplicity , its lack of hierarchies, etc., its natural openness and welcoming attitude (any one of you ould go to a mosque tomorrow and be made to feel very welcome, even if you just wanted to sit and watch) and the ease and lack of formality with which one can become a Muslim. My main key point of agreement, where I’m most enthusiastic about it , is its unbending adherence to what I personally believe to be the best way to worship : pure Monotheism, in the tradition of the Jews who , after all, did it first did it best and are still at it.

There are only two true Monotheisms: Judaism, and Islam. Christianity , with its excessive veneration of a deceased human being, even though he was clearly an inspired spiritual man, a great prophet in his own right, and furthermore with its belief in the “Trinity”, is not true monotheism at all.

Incidentally, I don’t think I have yet seen any real , non faith-based, “contra” debating points presented to the points that I brought up.

To simplify: How do you square the fact, as I asked in my original post, that the man Jesus, the historical individual whom the faith is based upon, would (as anyone who objectively studies religion will state) almost SURELY never have believed himself to be, stated himself to be, or wanted himself to be considered by future generations of Jews ( and incidentally his ministry WAS really only TO his fellow Jews; he was disinterested, at best, in Gentiles) the literal “son of God”, or any kind of “manifestation” or fleshly “incarnation” of God.
[/quote]

Investigate the beginnings of Islam…check out Belloc’s writings. Islam in a strict sense is an incomplete synthesis of the Judeo-Christian theology. It is difficult for me to believe in Muhammad who is objectively speaking a self proclaimed prophet. His version of God is a dictator. Christ reavealed God as FATHER. Christ resurrected from the dead as a historical fact. Christ fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies way back from Genesis. Muhammad did not fulfill anything. Furthermore, Christ claimed himself as God and gave proof of it. Muhammad demotes Christ as a human prophet. So these two are not reconcilable ideas. True that Christ was man…but no less true that He was God.

A simplified or streamlined religion can be tempting for it takes less effort. The reason the Catholic faith seem complex is because it is imbedded in history and many things Christ revealed are in forms of paradoxes. Many want a simplified Christ…because they cannot stretch themselves to embrace paradoxes.

Lastly, but even more important, pray for illumination. Christ said that He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

God bless your search for you seem to be in your personal LENT right now.

in XT.


#20

Think of this one small example : all the shops actually close, so that people can spend some time being spiritual, at the same time, every single day. **We have so lost anything resembling that kind of spirituality here in the West that it is pathetic. ** I suppose there was a time when Christendom had something of the same “fervour” or “spirit” that Islam has today, but it’s been gone for hundreds of years. Though it may not appear this way today, in Islam’s “dark ages” (which are, sadly, right now), Islam is the religion of the future. Look up the numbers alone; they speak for themselves. And as to why should you believe me… you shouldn’t. You should continue on your own path, as I’m sure you will. As the Prophet Muhammad said, "Let there be no compulsion in religion.

I will say some of the things you say may have some credence. But, secularism has taken over and some of the faithful Christians and some Catholics bought into it. For example, this past year people could not say “Merry Christmas” instead people were told the proper expression was “Happy Holidays” this is a form secularism. We call the Christmas Tree a Holiday Tree. Ridiculus! We need to stand up for our faith and protect it because it is being attacked today by the media and other forms of communications. Catholicism has been in existence for 2000 plus years. Let any religion top that! You can’t because we accepted God’s son and God has showed favor on us.


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