Has anyone read the book: The Poem of the Man-God?

Has anyone read the book The Poem of the Man - God
by Maria Valtorta?

She was a visionary that had visions and she wrote very detailed about the unknown lifes of Jesus and of Mary.

Please do a search as there are currently several threads on this topic. Her book was on the forbidden list and her so called revelations are condemned by the Church. The other threads will refer you to all the documents relating to this.

I read that after alot of years the church has just allowed the faithfull to read it because it has nothing agaist the faith.

That is not the case. Check out the ongoing threads on this.

Im intrested on reading them, where can I read them?

click where it says ‘search’ at the top of the page and type in ‘poem of the man-god’. It should show you all the threads that discuss the books.

I dont know where you can get them, but I recently was in Rome and in the bookshops surrounding the Vatican (catholic bookshops) the Poem of the Man God is available in English and Italian.
So my question would be why is it difficult in USA, England, Aust. and other western nations and not in every bookshop in and around the Vatican.
I noticed it because I remember being surprised as I had also heard that it was a no no to read.
I personally have read the issues and I have found nothing debilitating to the catholic faith.
GraceAngel.

I think that is because highly esteemed, well-known, theologically sound and well-respected priests in Europe *respect and reccommend the work *(which is **not **forbidden by Rome, as another poster in this thread said. That it is forbidden is untrue, but many proclaim it forbidden, confidently, as if it were a given fact).

So while in Europe, and in Vatican City itself, the books are widey read, in our country, we have the wonderful EWTN which has done so much good in promoting holiness, and there is Father Mitch Pacwa, a very holy priest, with very sound doctrine. Bu he is one of those who has taken a stance against Poem of the Man-God, and he is kind of a celebrity priest for us, so we take his word, because we know and love him. But all preists are not infallible in everything they say (although priests speak infallible truths). Obviously this is true, becaue on this matter like in some others, you have respected priests and bishops with differeing opinions.

And Father Mitch Pacwa has been the spokesperson on EWTN - that highly reliable American source for Catholic truth (and I am not being facetious, so don’t misunderstand) - and we Catholics go there for answers we can trust. Pacwa’s opinion is printed on their website and it is repeated by everyone who wants a quick authoritative answer for “Is this okay to read?”.

Father Pacwa says no, but I would like to challenge him someday - have you even read it? I think, very strongly, not. Only he can confirm if he has read or studied it. But I see he is relying on 2nd and 3rd hand sources to form his opinion. I believe he thinks he has given a reliable opinion because the sources are connected to reliable sources in one way or another.

Father Pacwa is far more knowledgable than me on most Catholic subjects and has far more coursework in theology. But on this matter, I feel I am more informed because I have actually read, closely, the volumes, and I strongly doubt he has. There is no proof of it in any of his commentary, which I am discerning to be based on other people’s comments, not his own reading.

I searched high and low for intelligent negative commentary on the net from actual readers of the Poem-of the Man-God. It just doesn’t exist. It is all usually argument that the book was once banned. The list is now abolished, but the arguments comes because some have the opinion we are morally obligated to obey the banned book list, even though is has been officially abolished. There are long arguments that our Pope, years back, befoer he was Bishop and I understand before he was Cardinal, while serving under the authority of a dubious, controversial modernist Bishop who openly opposed the orthodox theology of Poem-of-th-manGod, wrote in answer to a query about the books that they were “a badly fictionalized novel”.

Which is quite odd to anyone who has actually read the books. Call it fictionalized if you must, but it is a miracualously rich and theologocally and archeoloically perfect “fiction” - so say experts of those fields.

But al the detractors use that old quote, and Father Pacwa, though trustworthy man that he is, is in fact only another detractor doing the same thing.

That comment on the EWTN website concering what our Pope once wrote in a letter befoe he was Pope, (“badly fictionallized…”) is refuted here by this Bishop:

bardstown.com/~brchrys/DnlkEWTN.htm

But my favorite and most convincing support of the Poem (besides actually reading it) is this comment by John Haffert, founder of the Blue Army, also on that website (which is full of inof and links and many sources of support of The Poem):

valtorta.alphalink.com.au/POEM.HTM

continued on next post)

(Continued)

So what does one *do, *when well-respected priests and bishops have completely polarized views on a subject? As in this: the book is from God himself vs. the book is a fake, probably of Satan, and forbidden?

One safe road to take is to avoid the book altogether. After all, where there is smoke, there is often fire! And, there often is a grain of truth to rumors! Better safe than sorry! After all, the Church has so many approved riches, why risk something tht may mislead??

I do respect that stance. I just begin to lose respect when those same people who don’t even look at the book beome an authority on what everyone should do. They are avoidng it so everyone else should too and if they don’t they are gulity of the sin of diobedience and rebellion!

And it sounds so familiar to me. Becaue I was Evenagelical and I loved Jesus and so did my fellow believer-friends, and I had the Bible: Gods word! Wht else does one need! Apparently nothing!

I would never be Catholic. Clearly, the Catholic Church was shrouded in “smoke”. The fire of hell had to be there for those people who did not accept the Lord as we beleivers did. So many reliable sources said the Catholic beliefs were very bad! Who had time to examine for themselves, and who needed to waste such time when holy, reliable, learned people said it was bad! Why not be safe and avoid it altlogether. There were so many more important truths of God to understand, and grapple with, why bother with that smoke-shrouded religion of man, that all the experts said was not of Jesus?

But I knew my Shepherd’s voice, and he led me to the Catholic Church, wher I thought I would never go. I asked the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth, and I followed Him, and I had to confront the “smoke” that I previously wanted to flee from in safety. Then I could not deny the truth he showed me, even though the cost.

The same thing happened with the Poem. I picked it up to read on reccommendation. I heard my Shepherd’s voice. I knew it was from Jesus. When later I heard the loud voices of detractors, I searched my Chruch for the truth she offers so abundantly. If this was bad, she would show me! She had shown me why each of my Protestant misbeliefs were wrong. But nowhere, did any Catholic, lay or not, show how any of what I read in Poem-of-the Man-God was not true. Nothing could be found! I would be glad to be shown, but I do not beleive it exists.

I was not surprised then to see that esteemed theologians and mariologists have said that The Poem is theologically flawless.

So i continue to read - I can’t help it. The books bring me such joy. I often ask God to show me if they are not true, but it seems so silly to even ask. He brings me back to himself in the books. I am getting a great theological education, besides my joy an delight.

I think the churhc has an overwhlemign responsability. they cant suddenly accept a 5th gospel.
I think we can read them as fiction to have an idea of how the life of Jesus would have been like, but nto to put all our faith in that book.
and we must keep a high regard for the priest n the peopel that are studying this book becasue they have an overwhelming task.

I think the book have deep life teachings and I personately I think it comes form God, nevertheless I have no problem reading it as fiction book.

For exampel Padre Pios stigmas and several marian apparition were sevearly studied, some of them for tens of years before they were confirmed true.

I don’t know how many eminent bishops and priests and theologians have come down on each side of the debate over Poem of the Man God.

I do know that they were placed on the Index, and were never removed from it when the Index was done away with. And that the Congregation for Defence of the Faith ITSELF came out only last year reminding everyone of this statement, made when the Index was done away with:

“The Index retains its moral force, inasmuch as it warns the Christian conscience to be on guard, as the natural law itself requires, against those writings which can endanger the faith or good morals” (June 14, 1966; AAS vol. 58, 445).

I should think the CDF is pretty much the ultimate authority on the matter. Read them at your own extreme moral and spiritual peril. Case closed.

Yes, there are eminent people on both sides. Though, I have never found an eminent bishop, priest or theologian who comes up against the books who has read and/or studied them thoroughly. I have looked! I would love to read the arguments of one!

As I said, the negative arguments *always *comes down to this, just as you have stated, Lily.

The only content ever discussed are the same few quotes, repeated everywhere on the net, which are easily shown to be mistaken and their context misconstrued.

But no one ever presents those quotes for discussion. They are presented as proof the books are bad, and no discussion, please. Its similar to the many anti-Catholic websites on the web. Full of misinformation, but no forum provided to discuss their misinformed proclamations and judgements.

And this statement shows the problem I have with detractors.

I can understand completely your saying: “For me, the case is closed!”

What doesn’t make sense to me is the clear judgement here that anyone who doesn’t choose as you do is in moral peril.

Don’t you think that you are judging the hearts, motives and thoughts of others rather harshly?

If eminent priests and theologians are supporting it, then wouldn’t you acknowledge the possiblity there may be more info you are not aware of, and if you were, you might possibly judge differently?

I am not saying you should learn about it. Disinterest in what seems wrong can’t be sinful. I don’t think my disinterest in Catholicism when Protestant was morally wrong either. I was sure it was wrong, so why should I learn more?

But Lily, it seems to me that you could acknowledge there is more that exists to learn on the subject, and you could possibly be wrong, and others right. And you have simply made the most moral right choice you can for yourself, based on your understanding and knowledge.

Nope.

Look, there are eminent priests and theologians arguing that other cardinals would have been better choices than Benedict XVI, or John Paul II before him, and probably debating the merits of every Pope back to Peter himself. Doesn’t change the fact that those Popes have each been chosen and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Same with the Index, or the canonisation of a Saint. These are exercises of the Magisterium, to varying degrees, and we’re really not free to ignore them, even if we disagree.

Those who put books on the index or canonise a Saint usually do so with more sources of information available to them than you or I have, and probably more than the vast majority of supporters and detractors. They don’t usually make all the information that they have public, nor would it be prudent for them to do so.

They, for one thing, certainly would have thoroughly read the work in question! Back to front and inside out. And perused all the available scholarship and opinion in favour of and against it. Probably more thoroughly than you or I, or the majority of supporters, I would suggest.

I am not saying you should learn about it. Disinterest in what seems wrong can’t be sinful. I don’t think my disinterest in Catholicism when Protestant was morally wrong either. I was sure it was wrong, so why should I learn more?

But Lily, it seems to me that you could acknowledge there is more that exists to learn on the subject, and you could possibly be wrong, and others right. And you have simply made the most moral right choice you can for yourself, based on your understanding and knowledge.

Tosh. You and I can learn nothing more about the works than the CDF itself would have learned, believe you me! We don’t have any more information available to us than they would have had. Nor more leisure to devote to studying it, nor greater expertise.

Besides all of which, they are the ones with the authority to bind and loose heaven, not you or I. And they possess it to a much greater extent than the individual bishops or priests who are in favour of the work.

That, in this instance, makes them the authority. Not you, nor I. As I said earlier. And I have no reason not to trust that authority implicitly.

Indexing a book and canonizing a Saint, I am quite sure, have nowhere near equal levels of scrutiny or of information involved in the discerning process. After all, Our Church did away with the Index, but no one has ever suggested doing away with the Canonization of Saints!

And I don’t think you have any idea what they “usually do” to put a book on the Index - do you?

This would be a good idea! But, I get the idea from my reading that this is not at all what was done. I think its a good guess that not doing what you suggest, above, had something to do with why they did away with the Index!

Do you have any authoriative source, or, just any source at all, other than your own thought that this would be a good idea, that this is what they ever did?

I get the idea that these are your thoughts off the top of your head. Its your own idea of how things ought to be, and so you are conjecturing that thats how they actually are.

One thing I learned while searching for solid info on this topic is that for awhile a very questionable Cardinal with Modernist heresay views and questionable administrative methods was in charge of CDF. I am not an authority on that, but - can you question this is not a possibility? Jesus had a Judas, and Jesus didn’t weed him out, but let him act as Apostle. We have Judas’ today who are acting in positions of authority. Of course they are in the minority, and God has always been in charge ultimately and protects his Church. But the Judas’ exist, and they are growing weeds, wrecking havoc in the garden. The garden is a living evolving thing needing the constant care of the Master Gardener.

So, for the most part, I am guessing, just as you were guessing here. And I ask: If the methods of choosing books for the Index were questionable, how would might the Church respond… perhaps, abolish the Index??

Yes, the “moral authority” exists, but what does that mean? It seems to me that you are asserting that it means the books are still abolished, and everything on the list was put there for an important and unalterable reason!

And does that mean that you think the now-abolished Index was/is an infallible, final authority and judgement of those books and authors?

But that is obviously not so – or why would the Index have been abolished?

I know it can seem at times that our minds are not big enough to contemplate truths that others, more wise, “must” have settled, anyway. But our minds are able to contemplate more than we give ourselves credit for most of the time, I think.

I do know that God said that if anyone lacks wisdom, they can ask Him, and He will give it in abundance. I know also that we can ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, and He will.

I am certainly not arguing the authority of the Church! Anyone who reads my posts can see that!

But it seems me, Lily, that you are presuming that when the Church abolished the Index, She really meant that: *Even so, all the books ever listed on that Index I aboilished are yet pronounced infallibly to be bad - and all should always be avoided, in order to avoid moral and spiritual peril! *

__________________

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***


Of course you are - you’ve cast all sorts of vague and baseless aspersions and criticisms on the work and workers of the CDF and its predecessors. On those who headed the CDF, servants appointed by the Popes themselves. And on our current Holy Father, no less, who was one of those heads of the CDF!

You’re not trusting that when the Church labelled these works as PROHIBITED, in 1959, that it meant to use this particular word, which is a very strong one, and for good reason.

You’re, moreover, denying the moral authority that our present Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ himself, not less, has said that listing still carries now.

And finally, as Father Pacwa so rightly points out, you’re ignoring the mountains of perfectly good, solid, undoubtedly beneficial and approved works that you could be reading instead of wasting your time on dubious (to put it as mildly as possible) stuff.

But it seems me, Lily, that you are presuming that when the Church abolished the Index, She really meant that: Even so, all the books ever listed on that Index I aboilished are yet pronounced infallibly to be bad - and all should always be avoided, in order to avoid moral and spiritual peril!

It seems to me, Eliza, the church doesn’t speak out against such works lightly. And it also appears to me that there are much better and more solid books you could be reading. And that I’m not wasting a second of my time on anything that is of such doubtful benefit to me or anyone else.

It also appears to me, Eliza, that you’re putting your own opinion ahead of that of the CDF, which is far more dangerous to your spiritual health than trusting the CDF to do its job.

You know the CDF do this kind of stuffs because they love and want to protect their faithfull, and they dread to think that they could be sevearely misleaded.
The CDF lasted a lot in reconazing several marian apparitions.
but Eliza dont worry.
if the book comes from God, it will be allowed to be read soon or late. just like the apparitions n the stigmas of Padre Pio.

THe CDF do this because of their love for their faithfull, and im convince that the book has deep meanings n are very good ones but you msut acknoledge the overwhelming task that the CDF has, by accepting this book.

On the link that you wrote Fr Mitch Pawca reject the book but he say we could read it if we read the scriptures and go to the holy sacrament etc. in order to have a stronger spiritual life and not to be misleaded.
So he was basically saying that the one that will read it must read it under their own risk.
However people 'd love to read this becuase they d like to ahve an idea of how was the life of Jesus that is not on the bible.
On every word of the book, there are deep life teachings. and its a good book.
If its forbiden then I will read it as fiction. I have no problem with the book. I respect the church and their good will to protect us from misleaded stuffs.

of course not, it is a condemned private revelation, why on earth would I waste my time when my library is full of good, orthodox spiritual reading that has stood the test of time and poses no spiritual dangers? Life is short, and if there is one thing most people complain about it is lack of time for spiritual pursuits–prayer, bible study and spiritual reading. Why waste that time with something that is not only unproductive but downright dangerous?

the bad fruits of this work are very evident on thread, on previous threads on this topic, here and on other sites and publications. It leads to questioning and even condemning the magesterial authority of the Catholic Church, which is proof of its malice and lack of authenticity.

You are really going off freely accusing me, and your accusastions are false ones. You seem to be speaking off the top of your head. Read my posts before you react.

But you are not trusting that when the Church abolished the Index, she MEANT to.

Do you think that infallibility of the Church means that all the Bishops and all the Cardinals and all the Offices of the Vatican will always say and do everything irrevocably perfectly and infallibly?

But that is not what Catholic Church means by infallibility.

Obviously if the Catholic Church was infallible in its every move, it would not publish an list of forbidden books and then revoke the list later.

I certainly am not. You don’t read my posts. And you cannot read my heart. You are wrong.

Jesus is my judge. Not you. And Jesus has told us clearly in the scriptures that we are not to judge others.

I already commented on Father Pacwa’s web opinion in an above post on this thread, and I think what I wrote is very fair and balanced.

Its fine if you want to take Fr. Pacwa’s opinion as the final infallible word on this matter. That is your choice. But that is not my position, and the Church does not obligate me to pick one priest, no matter how good he is, and stand by all his views on all things.

Hey, Lily, you don’'t know what books I’ve read!

Good for you! I support you choice, because I assume you are following your conscience, and doing what you think that God and our Church want you to do in the matter.

Then I can tell you, you have sorely misjudged me.

I trust in Jesus. I am a faithful follower of the Magisterium of our Church. I am not perfect, but I am in good hands.

__________________

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***

Eliza, you sound very happy and at peace with it. So be it. I have read several issues (1 and 2) and found nothing anti catholic.
Mind you I have a love for Teilhard de Chardin, and his writings too are under a “monitum,” which I believe is unfair because his book Le Milieu Divin is fabulous and again try as I might I cannot see error in this or the Phenomenon of Man. So there you have it.
I suppose we just need to be alert to the Holy Spirit and His guidance and if there is a sense of something not being right, then to listen to that inner voice. that Holy inner voice never guides us wrong.
God Bless
GraceAngel.
[/quote]

exactly the book make u have a very deep love for Jesus.
the church can say this books are not completely whitin the cahtolic doctrine, but people if they want they could read it without reading everythign as a fact.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.