Has CAI and Sungenis received a bad rap from the Catholic community?


Joe Moreaux wrote a very fair defense of Robert Sungenis and posted it on the Friends of La Nef blog (recently changed to Friends of the Motu Propio), which he was a contributor to. Subsequently, he and all his articles have been removed from the blog. Apparently, Michael Forrest objected to a positive article about Sungenis and removed it. I offered to post it on my blog out of a sense of fairness to both Robert Sungenis and Joe Moreaux.

Read it here.

Mark Wyatt


Well, he’s a fruitcake. A nutter. Offered some cash prize for evidence of the Earth orbiting the Sun, then of course refused to pay when it was delivered to him. He’s an embarassment to Catholic apologists, and that makes it very hard to recommend his early (very useful) books.

CAI must be the booby-hatch of Catholicism for the whole world.


Is it a bad rap to say someone’s ideas are crazy when they are? Maybe it’s a little rude, but when the guy is putting himself forward as a defender of Catholicism, it’s probably necessary.

As for the Jews, Moreaux misses the point. You can hold to the traditional view he mentions (that the Jews’ covenant with God has been completely superceded) without buying into the tired and vicious misreadings of Jewish tradition which Sungenis has recycled. I agree that he’s probably not anti-Semitic (any more than, say, Luther was anti-Semitic). He’s an exemplar of bad old-fashioned Christian anti-Judaism. Not the same thing as anti-Semitism, but too close for comfort in a post-Holocaust world.



First, this has nothing to do with geocentrism.

Second most of Sungenis’ attackers (Jacob Michael, David Palm, Ben Douglass, and Michael Forrest) have a positive interest in geocentrism.

Mark Wyatt


You asked about a bad rap. I reponded that yes, he has one, and geocentrism is my favorite example because it isn’t subject to interpretation like the anti-semitism thing.

Or did you not want to get any actual answers to your question?


I pretty much agree with that article and have tried to separate actual valid accusations from ones in which his own opinion is wrongfully attacked. This quote sums it up for me:
I am not writing this to put up an apologia for everything Dr. Sungenis writes or says. I am just trying to find my way through the smoke screens and make sense of all the criticisms levied against him which I feel often times are not warranted.
He went overboard at times, and he has even admitted it. But taking all of what he said and throwing it in one big pile against him is unwarranted and even slanderous.


Have you read this statement from Robert Sungenis yet? He is addressing some of the issues you speak of.

Mark Wyatt


Who is Joe Morneaux? Is he a friend of Dr. Sungenis?

I looked over the Motu Proprio blog and it doesn’t look like much of anything to me. Most of the articles are really old.

But I saw articles by Joe Morneaux there, so what am I missing?





There might be more but I found these at least.


I do not know if he is a friend of Sungenis or not.

Some of Joes recent articles were taken down, and he reports he has been removed as a contributor.

Here is a recent statement on the intent of La Nef to replace the Lidless Eye:

"The End of The Lidless Eye Inquisition, Etc.:

First announcement (circa July 6, 2007)

Final post (circa July 21, 2007)

Ultimately I hope what I noted in the final posting about Friends of La Nef will materialize:

For all of those who managed to glean something of value from this weblog, you made the efforts expended here worthwhile. In the meantime, the weblog Friends of La Nef which has similarly slowed down in production in the past year will hopefully pick up soon. I will try to resume contribution there occasionally as a role player. Admittedly for a group weblog I am involved in it is a somewhat odd situation for me to be in but one I do not mind at all. [Excerpt from *The Lidless Eye Inquisition (circa July 21, 2007)]

Hopefully this weblog will pick up in activity soon.

posted by Shawn @ 10:48 PM
postCount(‘4538988761149268207’); Comments | postCountTB(‘4538988761149268207’); Trackback "

Here is Joe Moreauxs website. I have not looked it over much, but it appears to have a lot of good material on it.

Mark Wyatt


No, I hadn’t. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, and I apologize for speaking without informing myself of the latest developments. I am impressed by Sungenis’s attitude here–this is Church discipline the way it’s supposed to work!





Mark, the story is already morphing. Why is this starting to look like deja vu all over again?

Before you told me that Dr. Sungenis’ advertisement about how he was going to have his imprimatur wasn’t really up at CAI and then I showed you it right on his main home page and it’s still there, btw.

What are the articles that were removed? I didn’t try to find every article so there could be more there.

Didn’t you look first yourself?

This whole thing is getting so old now anyway and you said you thought so, too. So why are you bringing this up now? Can’t you just let it rest?

If the bishop is working with Sungenis then just let him do it in peace. I mean come on, we’ve heard about everything that can be said about this. :frowning:


I don’t understand what the author is claiming in his “non-apology apology” for Robert Sungenis…

He states:

I feel many try to do it against Sungenis because he writes articles perceived to be critical of Judaism itself, but in reality criticize theories about the role of Jews in the end times.

and then soon after states…

*Perhaps Bob came off as too harsh in some of what he said at times (as he has humbly admitted), but the point stands: raising a criticism of Judaism does not turn one into an anti-Semite. *

So I’m confused. Is this person saying Sungenis does or does not criticize Judaism itself?

I suppose it doesn’t matter. The statement quoted upthread seems pretty clear, and I’d have no problem with it theologically. But stil, the “non-apology apology” was kinda muddy there.



I am not clear which of Joe Moreaux’s stories were taken down from the blog. I see some are still up. Joe claims some were taken down.

I am not totally clear as to Michael Forrest’s involvement in taking it down, though Joe says he believes Michael was responsible.

I edited my blog to state only that this particular story was taken down. That is waht is important. If I clarify what actaully occured, I may post it, but to be honest it is not important. The story was removed, so I offered to post it.

I apologize if I misrepresented anyone.

Mark Wyatt



What the heck is going on? :confused: This is like a broken record lately. I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and we’ve made peace before about the imprimatur situation but this is just getting rediculous.

You didn’t check any of this, right? You’re going by what someone said and you don’t have any other proof? And then you find out that at least some of it definately wasn’t right. And you still don’t know what happened but your going to still leave out there that maybe this happened? That’s so rediculous! :rolleyes:

If you don’t know something you don’t accuse people. You don’t leave it hanging out there either when you find out you just botched it.

I mean, come on! :frowning:

And can you tell me why Dr. Sungenis still has that ad up about his imprimatur? You said you were going to tell him he needs to change it. Why hasn’t he?

Forget it. I don’t even want to go through all of that again. It’s just getting pretty lame.


I will clarify what happened with the La Nef guys. Basically, I posted my article up on the La Nef blog. I then went to the SungenisandtheJews blog and commented on it, telling people to check out my article on the La Nef blog. People responded to that comment, blasting my article. I emailed Bob the responses, and he emailed me back with his comments to them. I then went back to the SungenisandtheJews blog and posted his responses in the comment section. It was at that point that I checked the La Nef blog, and not only was my article removed, but all my past articles were removed as well. I then tried logging in to the blog and was rejected, so I took this to mean I was no longer a contributor (adding to this was the fact that the list of contributors was taken off the La Nef blog). It was later that night that Bob apparently emailed Michael Forrest, since it appeared to us that he was the one who removed my article (based on a comment he wrote me, although we weren’t sure if it was him or not). Within the hour, I had access to the La Nef blog again, and my old articles were back up. However, my Sungenis/CAI article was still removed. I hope that clears up the mess. In the future, I hope to post more articles that could possibly be featured on Mark Wyatt’s blog and Laurence’s Xanga site as well (both of them have reposted my original article, which the La Nef guys deleted). Even Bob’s site, if he chooses. My basic point in writing the article is to clarify a lot of issues regarding CAI and Bob. It seems that some feel geocentrism removes one from mainstream apologetics. Others feel if anyone has a difference of opinion regarding the Jews’ role in the end times, it removes one from mainstream apologetics. Or if someone criticizes possible errors in Dr. Hahn’s theology or EWTN’s programming. Or if someone is a young earth creationist. As far as I can tell, Sungenis’ position on Vatican II is misunderstood by many, so I sought to clarify that as well. I feel Bob and CAI are a tremendous force for good in the spiritual battle, and that isolating him because of issues which are open for legitimate dialogue among Catholics of good-will is not right or charitable. Personally, I am a young earth creationist, agree with Sungenis’ main points concerning the Jews’ role in the end times. I hope this doesn’t cancel me out of the apologetic world as well. I also agree that liberals have twisted and distorted Vatican II to their own destruction. Sungenis is clearly not your typical conservative Catholic apologist, but then again he’s far from being an extreme or radical traditionalist. And I think much of his points and concerns are good, including his previous articles concerning Fatima. I think, as Catholics, we can have legitimate dialogue on these issues, and not need to isolate each other from the fight of faith. I hope I have made my point clear. If anyone has questions, email me and let me know. I have a website (www.kingdomofchrist.net) although it has not been updated in a long time. I am currently working with the webmaster to change it. I am hoping to start a new apologetics apostolate soon with some other like-minded young Catholic apologists. So keep us in your prayers, and keep Bob and CAI in your prayers. May we all stand united in things which are definitive, and be light in a world flooded with darkness.

  1. Thanks for clearing this up, Joe. I do not think anything else needs to be said.
  2. In order to assist the reconciliation between Robert Sungenis, Forrest, Michael, etc., I have removed this article at their (Sungenis, Michael) request.

Mark Wyatt


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