Has introduction of TLM caused division in your Parish?


#1

My question is to get input from those who have experienced the introduction of the TLM / Gregorian Rite in their Parish. I am blessed to currently attend a Parish where there is no sense of tension between parishioners that strictly attend the Pauline Rite and those who attend the Gregorian Rite Masses. Both are celebrated with the utmost reverence and there is no rivalry or nastiness between the people. To me, this is pretty impressive, and very different, compared to the Parishes I would travel to in the Midwest (where I am from) to attend the TLM.

What are your thoughts and experiences?


#2

My OF parish was divided long before our first EF back in 2008, even at coffee after Mass.

They (OF folks) slowly began to warm a little to us. Sometimes we even sit at the same table and talk. :D


#3

My parish has had the TLM for about five years now. It is true that the Latin Mass Attendees don't interact much with everyone else. Many of them travel a long way just for the mass and don't participate in any other activities. It's curious to look at the parking lot. When the Latin Mass is in secession, there's plenty of full sized 15 passenger vans with big ole timey Catholic families. When I attended the Baptism class for my daughter the woman running the class rolled her eyes when she mentioned the Latin Mass. She had no idea I attend the Latin Mass; so many of the parents at the class didn't attend mass regularly anyway.


#4

We have in our archdiocese a community of faithful from several Parishes, in the spirit of Summorum Pontificum, who celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite with no tension whatsoever (except some priests not necessarily enjoying the fact that their parishioners attend this Form of the Mass).

I have not yet seen any local Parrish implement the Extraordinary Form side by side with the Ordinary Form, but I would imagine it would indeed cause division, and it would be nothing bad: for "the thoughts of many hearts are revealed" when they (priests and lay faithful) are confronted with the choice between modernism and traditionalism. I've found beautiful hearts on both sides of the arguments, and terrible arguments on both sides as well, so I most naturally expect division. It is also natural that what we do not understand, we are afraid of, and this is often the case on both sides, as well.

I just hope that common sense and charity prevail, and that the Extraordinary Form become more and more widespread (that, however, depends on our dear seminarians and priests learning how to celebrate it :)).


#5

[quote="R_C, post:4, topic:309932"]
We have in our archdiocese a community of faithful from several Parishes, in the spirit of Summorum Pontificum, who celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite with no tension whatsoever (except some priests not necessarily enjoying the fact that their parishioners attend this Form of the Mass).

I have not yet seen any local Parrish implement the Extraordinary Form side by side with the Ordinary Form, but I would imagine it would indeed cause division, and it would be nothing bad:** for "the thoughts of many hearts are revealed" when they (priests and lay faithful) are confronted with the choice between modernism and traditionalism.** I've found beautiful hearts on both sides of the arguments, and terrible arguments on both sides as well, so I most naturally expect division. It is also natural that what we do not understand, we are afraid of, and this is often the case on both sides, as well.

I just hope that common sense and charity prevail, and that the Extraordinary Form become more and more widespread (that, however, depends on our dear seminarians and priests learning how to celebrate it :)).

[/quote]


I'd say this is where the division starts


#6

I have never heard the terms, "Pauline Rite" and "Gregorian Rite" and it seems to me that they come from a place of confusion. Benedict XVI said in Summorum Pontificum,

It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were "two Rites". Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

The proper terminology is the "Extraordinary Form" and "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite, in the Latin Church.


#7

boy,this didn’t take long


#8

[quote="Walking_Home, post:5, topic:309932"]

I'd say this is where the division starts-- when the faithful -- who are spiritually nourished via the OF --and don't jump into the EF bandwagon -- are regulated to "modernism".

[/quote]

:sad_yes:


#9

[quote="april32010, post:7, topic:309932"]
boy,this didn't take long

[/quote]

Forget the parishes, it's caused a division here on CAF.


#10

There is division in the sense that many of the people who attend the EF Mass are under the impression that the Latin Mass Community is a "Quasi Parish" sharing a church with the OF Mass, and get up in arms about our priests (who are associate pastors) having to ask the pastor for permission to start things up, bring in other priests to do talks, etc the same as any other associate pastor has to do in a parish.

On the other end, there are some people in the parish who think we're "tryIng to undo Vatican II". We just laugh at that and keep going on.

I think our Latin Mass Community has a pride and charity issue that needs to be resolved long before we'll ever be granted our own parish.


#11

Interesting. Our parish has both,and it is the folks who mostly attend the EF who support everything, and the mostly OF attenders who are the ones who are the most standoffish, and the most disagreeable to those who do not see things exactly their way.:shrug:


#12

[quote="Walking_Home, post:5, topic:309932"]
I'd say this is where the division starts-- when the faithful -- who are spiritually nourished via the OF --and don't jump into the EF bandwagon -- are regulated to "modernism".

[/quote]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "regulated to 'modernism'"? I'm not a native English speaker.

[quote="Deo_Gratias42, post:10, topic:309932"]
I think our Latin Mass Community has a pride and charity issue that needs to be resolved long before we'll ever be granted our own parish.

[/quote]

Funny, like I was saying both sides face similar situations. For instance, I think it's the O.F. community that has a "pride and charity" issue in accepting the rebirth of the traditional liturgy. There is a defensiveness that I can't understand...nobody who supports the traditional liturgy is claiming to be better or anything like that...you know, it feels just like when back in school some students would try to be more committed and organized and the rest, the majority, would somehow blame them for this behavior :shrug:

Any priest - this is my understanding - can now chose to celebrate the EF without having to request permission from the Ordinary. There is literally no need for a Latin Mass community requesting their own Parish...rather, every Parish where there are faithful interested in the usus antiquor should have a priest willing to learn and celebrate the "forgotten" form of the Roman Rite.

Let's face it: the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite can be celebrated with great reverence and no abuse. Many do so, and it's incredibly edifying and spiritually nourishing. However, there are elements within the Extraordinary Form (and I'm not referring to the language, that's a whole topic in its own) that are lacking in the Ordinary Form, which makes the E.F. richer. And there's no reason for anyone, priest or lay faithful, to be upset at this additional richness of the E.F.: if both are treasures of the Church, one may have more jewels, but both enjoy equal worth: infinite, for it is the banquet of the living God.

I don't mean to divert the thread from the original question, but I did want to mention these few things.


#13

[quote="Elizium23, post:6, topic:309932"]
I have never heard the terms, "Pauline Rite" and "Gregorian Rite" and it seems to me that they come from a place of confusion. Benedict XVI said in Summorum Pontificum,

The proper terminology is the "Extraordinary Form" and "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite, in the Latin Church.

[/quote]

Her terms were indeed confusing. Gregorian Rite is, I believe, another albeit unofficial term for the Tridentine Rite.

There is a Gregorian Missal, which can lead to confusion I suppose, and which is a licit option for the Ordinary Form Mass and is somewhat distinct from the Roman Missal, as the foreword for the Gregorian Missal itself indicates:

The Gregorian Missal is intended for the faithful who participate in Mass sung in Gregorian chant. It is useful for both choirs and the people in general, since the proper chants of the Gregorian repertory, as presented in the post-Vatican II edition of the Roman Gradual approved by Pope Paul VI, do not, as a rule, correspond to the song texts proposed in the present-day Roman Missal.

.

The Gregorian Missal follows the current Graduale Romanum, published by the monks of Solesmes. But it remains the Ordinary Form Mass promulgated by Paul VI. In fact the Graduale itself was approved by him.

The post-Vatican II Graduale was established to adapt the Gregorian repertory to the new liturgical year, in particular the three-year cycle of readings:

This Graduale Romanum, which our present Gregorian Missal follows, re-distributes the chants in accordance with the renewed liturgical cycle and in order to accompany the new lectionary with its wide choice of readings. Furthermore, it enriches the Gregorian repertory itself, since it puts back into circulation certain authentic pieces which were not used for centuries while setting aside many inauthentic neo-Gregorian compositions fo the 19th or early 20th centuries.

The Extraordinary Form would use the old Graduale Romanum ("editio vaticana"), promulgated by Pius X in 1908 and also the work of the monks of Solesmes.


#14

[quote="R_C, post:12, topic:309932"]
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "regulated to 'modernism'"? I'm not a native English speaker.

[/quote]

You said that the EF choice and OF choice is between traditionalism and modernism. That is simply not the case.

Funny, like I was saying both sides face similar situations. For instance, I think it's the O.F. community that has a "pride and charity" issue in accepting the rebirth of the traditional liturgy.

The OF is also traditional liturgy; it stems out of a legitimate Catholic tradition.

Also, there has been no "rebirth" of anything, at least in the formal context. If you want to argue that greater permission to celebrate the EF constitutes "rebirth," then fine, but that seems an extremely tenuous claim.

There is a defensiveness that I can't understand...nobody who supports the traditional liturgy is claiming to be better or anything like that...

LOL. That is totally untrue. Many people who support the EF do believe that they are better and that their liturgy is better. Consider the opinions of those on traditional catholic forums, for example.

you know, it feels just like when back in school some students would try to be more committed and organized and the rest, the majority, would somehow blame them for this behavior :shrug:

Reported -- you claim that "nobody who supports traditional liturgy is claiming to be better" and in the very same post claim that those who support traditional liturgy are "more committed and organized."

However, there are elements within the Extraordinary Form (and I'm not referring to the language, that's a whole topic in its own) that are lacking in the Ordinary Form, which makes the E.F. richer.

There is no additional richness of the EF.

And there's no reason for anyone, priest or lay faithful, to be upset at this additional richness of the E.F.: if both are treasures of the Church, one may have more jewels, but both enjoy equal worth: infinite, for it is the banquet of the living God.

Those who are angry at such claims are angry because an illusory status is being presented as concrete.


#15

[quote="toastmachines, post:1, topic:309932"]
My question is to get input from those who have experienced the introduction of the TLM / Gregorian Rite in their Parish. I am blessed to currently attend a Parish where there is no sense of tension between parishioners that strictly attend the Pauline Rite and those who attend the Gregorian Rite Masses. Both are celebrated with the utmost reverence and there is no rivalry or nastiness between the people. To me, this is pretty impressive, and very different, compared to the Parishes I would travel to in the Midwest (where I am from) to attend the TLM.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

[/quote]

Our Latin Mass Community exists within another parish and is a FSSP Apostolate. Unfortunately, I have witnessed some tension between the faithful on both sides. The OF Parish is dominant, and a few people seem to try their best to find fault and criticize the EF Community for anything they can find or think of. I really dislike hearing (from either side) the sometimes nasty "those people" rhetoric as if we were of two separate Faiths, which is to the case of course. One rite, two forms - but the two rite misunderstanding is common. Both forms are Roman Catholic and both forms in and of themselves are equally as valid as the other. If everybody would understand and accept this fact life would be a lot easier. All the infighting gets tiring.

mda


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