Have you ever gotten really angry.. and thought about leaving the RC Church?


#1

I thought this kind of thing would never happen to me again… i thought i was beyond it because i had studied the history & teachings of the Church, knew that it was the one Christ established on Earth… etc… I still believe/know that. And so, that’s why i was so surprised to have those feelings again, those feelings of being “fed up” :mad: with the Church.

What happened was i read this book called (I think?) A Life Worth Living written by the parents/siblings of Terri Schiavo.

That is one unbelievable book!! :eek:

If there is one book that all Christians should read, I feel it should be that one… Why? Because it shows more clearly than any I’ve ever found what is really going on in this world and in the Church, the extent of the devil’s influence…

I don’t have time to go into all the details but here is some of what i read:

That the family contacted ALL the biships in the US… to get help to save Terri’s life. Only 3 responded… :eek:

Judge Greer seemed to be obsessed with killing Terri, went to ridiculous extremes to accomplish that.

Gov Jeb Bush was going to take custody of Terri despite the judicial ruling to remove the feeding tube… went to the facility to do that… but the judge threatened to have him arrested if he did…:eek: so the Gov backed down…

I think he should have taken the chance… So what if he was arrested? He could have saved Terri’s life…

Terri’s husband had OBVIOUS conflicts of interest throughout the situation… yet no one was able to get his guardianship revoked.

Terri’s husband was VERY likely the one who caused her injuries in the 1st place… He was even violent ( before her collapse) with her family members, attacked her brother, etc… and even when evidenced surfaced that would have cast suspicion on him… he was still allowed to be her guardian…:confused:

I could go on but, again, don’t have time…

The Church really let the Schindlers down… & i am feeling rather ashamed to be Catholic … (there are other things in the book that contributed to that feeling…)

Just wondering if i am the only one who gets really angry and fed up like this…


#2

Keep in mind that the book is from the parents point of view, and they were in denial, from the time of Terri’s accident on.

How they vilified their son-in-law in the media and the book, is shameful.

I don’t believe we have the full story on this, and from what I recall, the autopsy showed that Terri had no chance of recovery, nor did she have an awareness of what was going on.
Her brain had become a mass of useless gelatin like mush.

The sad part of this entire thing, is that she wasn’t allowed to die from the begining.

Jim


#3

you are wrong… they didn’t vilify that “man” enough… they should have known from the beginning, and should have said so in court, how abusive he was - because he was attacking HER family members and also his own… (brother, Scott) physically!!! long before she collapsed. If they made that stuff up, that “man” would have sued them like crazy…

and Terri WAS conscious of people aroiund her… she was not persistent vegetative state by a LONG shot…

I believe that judge was anti-Catholic… and a lot of others involved in that case…

I’ve read more than one book on this case… and after the things i’ve been through myself, i have no trouble believing their story… although it still shocked me… how evil people can be…

it is not surprising for me anymore to read things like what St. Leonard of Port Maurice wrote, that most adults are damned…

sounds bad… but then, people’s behavior and lack of love for Christ is bad…


#4

Whenever I think that there are problems within the Church, I try to also remember that this is actually a good reason to STAY within it, to defend it and be a good example.

Think of the Church as a great ship… in the ocean, being attacked by enemy ships… and every little or big corruption, sin, you see…that’s a result of the attacks (of the devil, who’s trying to destroy the Church). So the best thing is to stay on the ship and defend it from the enemy, rather than jump overboard :slight_smile:

God bless.


#5

don’t worry - i can’t leave… I know too much… :smiley:

I would never leave the Real Presence…

It’s all those “fake presences”… :smiley: (insincere people) that make me want to leave… but wanting to (at times ) and doing so are 2 different things…

I don’t feel i would even KNOW Jesus if it weren’t for the Real Presence and the Mass… and Jesus said… well, there’s that psg about how he rejects people, saying, “Depart from me, I never knew you…”


#6

that’s good that you wouldn’t leave :slight_smile: i wouldn’t leave either (and for the same reason).

that’s true that there are insincere people in the Church, but… i guess all we can do is just pray and try to be the best Catholics we can be :slight_smile:

God bless!


#7

that’s waht i do…

although that “trying” doesn’t amount to success sometimes…:frowning: but i have to forgive myself just as i forgive others… Funny to think about it, but i think i tend to forgive others faster and better than i forgive myself… but i am learning to do that… Jesus helps me learn many, many, important things…

Do you spend time at the Blessed Sacrament, in the Real presence?

:heaven:


#8

distracted

you are wrong… they didn’t vilify that “man” enough… they should have known from the beginning, and should have said so in court, how abusive he was - because he was attacking HER family members and also his own… (brother, Scott) physically!!! long before she collapsed. If they made that stuff up, that “man” would have sued them like crazy…

This was proven to be false accusations. All the medical records and history showed that Terri’s husband went above and beyond, to get the best care for his wife. What people did to him in the media, was sinful.

and Terri WAS conscious of people aroiund her… she was not persistent vegetative state by a LONG shot…

The autopsy proved otherwise.

LARGO, Fla. - An autopsy on Terri Schiavo backed her husband’s contention that she was in a persistent vegetative state, finding that she had massive and irreversible brain damage and was blind, the medical examiner’s office said Wednesday. It also found no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused.

But what caused her collapse 15 years ago remained a mystery.

The autopsy and post-mortem investigation found no proof that she had an eating disorder, as was suspected at the time, Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin said.

msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/

I believe that judge was anti-Catholic… and a lot of others involved in that case…

There is no evidence to support this idea.

I’ve read more than one book on this case… and after the things i’ve been through myself, i have no trouble believing their story… although it still shocked me… how evil people can be…

Some times, people who are devote and mean well, can cause more harm than good, because they’re blinded by their emotions and remain in denial.

Sorry, but I don’t buy all that has been said about this case.

If it ever happened to my wife, God forbid, I would not want outside interference, especially from the US Congress, in my decisions for her.

Jim


#9

If you haven’t read the parent’s book, then you have no place to say all this… it is totally contradictory to the book… and these people wer devout Catholics who didn’t even stretch the truth in COURT when it would probably have been in their best interests to do so…

I am NOT going to believe anything contrary to waht they said… As i have said elsewhere, when it comes down to a Protesant or non-Catholic’s word against that of a Catholic, i will believe the Catholic. every time…


#10

distracted

Well, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.

Jim


#11

. . .which is to be expected after two weeks of starvation and dehydration.

Jim, your opinion is in opposition to the Church’s teaching on not refusing food and water.


#12

no, all the bishops of the US were not contacted by the family

the bishop who responded is the one in whose diocese this occured. no other bishop should have had input if the request was a direction to Catholics in that diocese on how to proceed in that situation. that bishop may or may not have adequately communicated Catholic teaching in what has been admittedly a very confusing particular application of a confusing moral issue.

but whether or not his response, or that of 3 bishops, or that of 100, was orthodox, that still does not tarnish “the entire universal Catholic Church” or her teachings. To say “I am going to leave the Church because some bishops did not, in one case, uphold her teachings forcefully enough” is ludicrous. If you believe the teachings, you believe the teaching authority of the Church who promotes them.

bear in mind this book is written as an expression of deep grief from some (not all) members of the family affected, and should be taken as such, as you would the extreme remarks of one of the survivors at the time of a funeral. grieve with them, but don’t change your own religion–especially as you have no alternative–on that basis


#13

that’s not what the book said… What’s your source?

no other bishop should have had input if the request was a direction to Catholics in that diocese on how to proceed in that situation.

if a person can intervene to save someone’s life and doesn’t do it… there is no excuse… unless that person’s own life is endangered…

To say “I am going to leave the Church because some bishops did not, in one case, uphold her teachings forcefully enough” is ludicrous.

did anyone say that??

bear in mind this book is written as an expression of deep grief from some (not all) members of the family affected, and should be taken as such, as you would the extreme remarks of one of the survivors at the time of a funeral. grieve with them, but don’t change your own religion–especially as you have no alternative–on that basis

gee… remind me never to tell you my grief about anything… as if greif somehow messes up one’s mind. These people had documents, court records, etc… they didn’t just write off their feelings… or whatever…


#14

beckycmarie .

which is to be expected after two weeks of starvation and dehydration.

The autopsy report showed that the cause was from years of being in a vegetated state, not from the two weeks of not being fed or hydrated.

Jim, your opinion is in opposition to the Church’s teaching on not refusing food and water.

And in Terri Shriavo’s case, I have a hard time accepting the Church’s teaching.

The Church does allow the withdrawal of extraordinary care, when it is determined by competent professionals, that such care will not save the person, but only prolong the suffering.

The Church claims that feeding, even through artificial means is not a medical act. I disagree. Having witnessed artificial feeding and hydration of pre-mature infants, it is in fact a medical act.
No one except medically trained professionals can do it, so its not natural, not something that is in the ordinary.

Also, I do not believe that the Church’s teaching on this issue is infallible.

Also they stopped feeding and hydrating Pope John Paul II, who wrote:

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS
ON “LIFE-SUSTAINING TREATMENTS AND VEGETATIVE STATE:
SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES AND ETHICAL DILEMMAS”

I also understand why the Church takes the position she has. The slippery slope that would open up, if they loosened their position, prematurely.

Jim


#15

FYI, here’s Pope John Paul II’s address on this;

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20040320_congress-fiamc_en.html

Jim


#16

why trust the autopsy if you can’t trust the other officials involved in the case? and besides, i haven’t heard anything about this autopsy result you speak of… and i have read books on the case. You probably get your info (so called) from the media… You’ll never get truth there…

And in Terri Shriavo’s case, I have a hard time accepting the Church’s teaching.

well… if you knew that the R Catholic Church is the ONE Church Christ established on EArth, maybe it wouldn’t be so hard to accept. If you DO accept that… then you can’t pick & choose what to believe of what The Church teaches… God does not teach errors or allow errors in his Chruch to be taught… (St. Mt 16:18)

The Church claims that feeding, even through artificial means is not a medical act. I disagree.

I’ll believe the Church over you, thank you.

Having witnessed artificial feeding and hydration of pre-mature infants, it is in fact a medical act.
No one except medically trained professionals can do it, so its not natural, not something that is in the ordinary.

eating isn’t even natural to some people in 3rd world countries… Getting a tooth pulled is technically against nature… but you wouldn’t live long if you kept an infected tooth in your mouth… How would you like it if someone said they weren’t going to pull your tooth because that was an artificial way of preserving your health - that we should just let nature take its course?

Also, I do not believe that the Church’s teaching on this issue is infallible.

that doesn’t change its infallibility… I don’t believe in death or taxes…

I also understand why the Church takes the position she has. The slippery slope that would open up, if they loosened their position, prematurely.

Jim

the Church (unlike Protestant “churches” ) does not change its doctrine and does not change things such as this… Truth does not change … God does not change. right and wrong does not change…


#17

Sure, many times.

One example: When I was a kid my Mom stopped putting money in the collection plate when she heard that the Church, in one way or another, was supporting Angela Davis’ legal defense fund. :mad:

I admit that I don’t know for certain if it’s true that Catholic Church money went to Angela baby. But, the fact that the story was considered plausible tells you how Church use of money is viewed by many people.

Even today I give far more money to Protestant CCF than I do to parish collection plate. I’d rather educate a kid than support the sophisticated gents of the USCCB. :rolleyes:


#18

Actually, the Ordinary of the diocese is the competent authority to respond in these cases. He did respond with the proper Church teaching.

He said that it is immoral to take away basic needs of every human being: water, sustenance, oxygen and medication. Life support systems can be morally removed if they prove to be keeping a person alive, but not curing them.

He also said, you cannot do anything to directly further the onset of death. You can allow death to occur naturally by taking away extraordinary measures that sustain life when there is medical belief that the person will not remain alive without these machines and the person is brain dead.

After her feeding tube was removed the bishop did say that this was immoral, because you cannot morally starve someone. You are killing them, not just allowing the natural course of life to carry on.

There is not need to feel ashamed of the Church or of being Catholic. It was handled correctly by the local chancery.

We cannot judge her husband, doctors or the judge. We can only judge the action. The course of action that they took is not morally permissable.

Fraternally,

JR :slight_smile:


#19

[quote=distracted]Gov Jeb Bush was going to take custody of Terri despite the judicial ruling to remove the feeding tube… went to the facility to do that… but the judge threatened to have him arrested if he did…:eek: so the Gov backed down…

I think he should have taken the chance… So what if he was arrested? He could have saved Terri’s life…
[/quote]

Why didn’t you go down there and get *yourself *arrested in the cause for Terri? We all share in the responsibility to some degree. You could lay more blame on Gov. Bush, but before doing so, look to see within your own heart if you did enough for the cause of Terri.

Whenever something comes along that causes me to question an action taken by certain members of the Church, it does not shake my faith in the least nor does it cause me to think about leaving it. I base my dedication to Christ’s Bride - the Church - based on her unchanging teachings, not on her unruly children’s actions.


#20

Jim, perhaps the words of Christ will help you understand the Church’s teaching on not refusing food and water to the disabled.

*When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink*, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 25:31-46


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