Have you thought that the 144,000 are just the next generation?


#1

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I’m thinking Matthew 19.14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

And connecting with Matthew 5
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

If you think about it, children never speak the language of their parents; they don’t sing their parents’ song.
They are the meek who will inherit the Earth.
Children are quick to forgive and forget.
A child who loses a grandparent is quick to mourn but comforted by their parents.
Children are pure at heart.
Children are the reason for peace.

Revelation 1.1 says
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Isn’t the next generation that which is shortly to come to pass? Don’t children grow up really quickly?

Shouldn’t we consider Revelation as an ever continuing cycle of human evolution, relevant to every generation, rather than just a particular “end-point” in time?

Children are “our seed”. We reap what we sow. “Let us make this man in our image”, the sentiment of any new parent. From a single child grows a whole “mustard tree”, a genealogical tree. Children are “Corban” (Mark 7).

It’s just a thought. Your views are appreciated.


#2

I sure hope not. If the next generation are all virgins, then humanity will go extinct.


#3

My point is that all children start off as virgins and they are the future. Were you not a virgin once? Were you not once “of the next generation”?


#4

“Firstfruits” refers to fruit that has been harvested and then offered to God.

When it is used of a person, such as “Christ, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep,” it means that Christ died.

He is now alive because He was resurrected; and similarly, the 144,000 are alive in Him, in Heaven, although their bodies have not yet been resurrected.

But first, the 144,000 died. They are in Heaven because they died, not because they have not yet lived. They are not seeds; they are already-harvested fruit.

Now, you could argue that they are aborted children, miscarried children, etc. But this would be unlikely, because the 144,000 are marked upon the forehead; and the forehead mark in Revelation (foreshadowed in Ezekiel) has always been interpreted as the mark of Baptism (at least by standard liturgical Christians from the earliest times onward). Also, they are “redeemed from the earth” or “from the Land,” depending on your translation; so again, they have already lived.

They “follow the Lamb wherever He goes” because they are disciples, and they are virginal because they have maintained celibacy (following Jesus’ and Paul’s advice).

Re: peacemakers, you are following a faulty translation.

The actual Greek of Mt. 5:9 is “sons of God” (huioi Theoi). They aren’t supposed to be minors; rather, they are co-heirs of Christ, people adopted by God into His family. (Baptized Christian people, in other words.) The expression also implies a responsible position of rulership, because it was used for Israel’s kings. (And baptized Christians will eventually “judge angels.”) So basically, someone who is a peacemaker is someone who is acting as a representative of God, and according to the Christian vision of rulership, even if that peacemaker is just a Joe or Joanne Schmo in the world’s eyes.

“Sons of God” shows up in many different contexts in the OT, and the NT (including Matthew) talks a lot about both “sons of God” and “sons of the Kingdom” (huioi tes basileias). You also get all sorts of Hebrew and Aramaic expressions, like “sons of the bedchamber” for “the bridegroom’s attendants” (who would have all been adult men). Occasionally “sons” and “daughters” refers to kids, but it often refers more to an adult person’s place in their clan and tribe.


#5

It’s basic biblical numerology.

1000=a whole lot.
12=The tribes of Israel.
12=The apostles, the leaders of the new Israel, the church.

So 144,000 means a whole lot of people “from every tribe and tongue, people and nation,” called out from God’s holy people, are sealed.

-Fr ACEGC


#6

Oh. I see. I thought that fruits referred to the offspring of a family tree that fall to the ground in the autumn of their lives as when the fig tree loses its fruit in the wind. The fruit of a fig tree is only ripe in the autumn and when it is over ripe, it falls, just like a human, even in the slightest breeze. I thought the first fruits were earlier, yet to grow and therefore in the “Spring” of life and pretty resilient, rarely falling. Don’t they start to form when the winds are calm in late Spring and Summer? I thought that was why the angels held back the winds so that the 144,000 could be marked. I thought the first born fruits, developing in Spring, are marked on their heads by their stalks that just won’t let go, like God.

Spring = New Life, blossom
Early Summer = Fresh Life, fertilisation, first fruits
Late Summer = Life passing, fruits growing
Autumn = Late Life, fallen fruits
Winter = Hibernation

That is how I saw it. But then, I try to understand scripture in the world around me. I guess I’m being over simplistic.


#7

Nope, I just hold the view that the 144,000 are Israel (12x12x1000).


#8

It’s not wrong to have thoughts on Scripture that are based on personal experience and the world around you, even if it goes against the historical or literal meanings a bit.

The personal meanings and references you get from Scripture are often also intended by God, possibly specifically for you and nobody else. If they point you towards amending your life or understanding how Scripture relates to your life, for example, that’s called the “moral meaning” of Scripture.

But it’s also good to find out what the literal meaning is. The figs that fall off the tree in Revelation are a threatening image, all about the people who fall away from the Church in times of trouble. Figs that fall off a fig tree in a storm, before being harvested, aren’t much good to eat. (And if animals live near an orchard, any fruit that falls on the ground may fall into animal poop, and be contaminated with E. coli. Yuck!) Offering windfalls or unripe fruit was not the thing.

In the Jewish tradition, firstfruits (bikkurim) were offered at the Temple at the beginning of all the seven major harvests: wheat, barley, grapes (as new wine), figs, pomegranates, olives (as first-pressing olive oil), and dates. The harvests and the offering times ran between Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks (which became the Christian Pentecost) and Sukkot, the Feast of Booths.


#9

Is the correct term “numerology” or “figurative speech”?

I ask this because the former flirst with the occult…


#10

Numerology has nothing to do with the occult in this case. Numbers are used symbolically in scripture, just as they are in other contexts. For an American, for instance, 13 and 50 are important numbers, since 13 was the original colonies and 50 is the number of states. Numerology can be used as figurative speech. But there’s nothing magical or occultic about calling using numbers as a figure of speech or symbolically “numerology.”


#11

In my early days - when I read 144,000 -
I said, " cool " :smiley: I’m one of those chosen ones !
Not so anymore - lol
I’m still working on the 70 times 7 multiplication thing.


#12

What if I tell that there is…?


#13

What do you mean?


#14

I understand what you mean when you say numbers have a meaning in hebrew communication (and in other languages as well).

What I’m trying to point out is that the word “numerology” is actually used to refer to divination of numbers and using them as tools to predict future or cast spells.


#15

The word can mean two different things. I’m not using it to mean divination or anything to do with the occult. I’m using it as a technical term to refer to symbolic usage of numbers. Why would a priest be talking about the occult?

-Fr ACEGC


#16

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