Healthcare: Would you take this Deal?


#1

The problem with dreaming about helping the poor is this: most people conjure images of an honest, genuine poor person who lives in a meager home, has meager clothes and possessions, eats meager food, has no substance abuse problems, has no disposable income to spend on luxuries, and who genuinely appreciates help from others. This romantic dream is worth dreaming.

Let’s ask anyone who wants others to pay for their healthcare to submit to participation in a study that gives permission for a private detective to look at all credit card bills and monthly payments, and follow the participant around for a random week to keep track of all purchases. Only those who agree to be in the study and are only spending their money on basic food, clothing, and shelter will have their heathcare covered by taxpayers. Will you take this deal?

The reality is that too many people who want heathcare to be paid for by others are able-bodied and have big screen TVs, spend on movies, music and sports, gambling, find money for alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and excessive food, cheat on their taxes or the system, and actually squalk when someone finally says enough is enough. Taking money from others to pay for healthcare is not a right when the receivers are spending on entertainment. The bottom line is that too many Americans have learned that the liberal pacifist media will stroke your ego by agreeing with you, telling you how right you are, shouting it from the rooftops, even though they are unelected nobodies whose opinions are irrelevant to truly open-minded independent thinkers. Why can’t people see that they’re purchasing only a dream but not reality?

**Just remember, “FAST, CHEAP, GOOD: PICK ANY 2” **You can have it fast and cheap, but it won’t be good. You can have it cheap and good, but it won’t be fast. You can have it fast and good, but it won’t be cheap.

If you think you wait a long time at the doctor’s office now, just wait for govt. hc.

If we keep adding floors to this house of cards, it will collapse. Get over it before you give us anti-religion (because the it cuases too many wars), anti-freedom, population-control, authoritarian socialism.

Or, we could try tort reform and shop state to state for coverage first.


#2

This belongs in a political or a social justice forum.

Let me guess, you have never worked with the poor? I used to have the same ideas as you, then, I started working in the trenches.


#3

Yes, I worked in inner city New York for years. But it's not just the inner city by any stretch. If everyone were forced to tell the truth as in the movie Liar, Liar, all of this business of taxes and benefits distribution would be easy. We could simply ask people what they need instead of what people think they can get away with. Yes, the healthcare system needs to be reformed.


#4

And there are also those who live honestly, squeak by, count their pennies, and still can’t pay for health care. Ask my father about “working poor”, he’s LIVED it. I also work with plenty of people who need their jobs, but don’t get health insurance and, compounding on that, can’t take sick days for fear of losing money or their jobs. If you’re poor and have children, sometimes taking a day off of work would be detrimental. Yes, I know that there are poor people who live in the way you speak, but it’s not just the poor. Trust me, I know way too many college kids who live off mom and dad, have substance abuse issues, and spend all their money on iPhones. These are all kids from households where their parents pull in six figures. I also know people who are rich who are only rich because they inherited or who simply “live rich” (spend all their money on big houses and flashy clothes, only to be living beyond their means). Yet there’s also a noble picture of the rich person as someone who’s toiled all their lives to accumulate what they have.

I work four days a week and go to school. I have family support for my education and health insurance. Yet even I’ve gone broke from a doctor’s visit and almost couldn’t make rent. It was terrifying. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.


#5

People who receive social services when they are buying optional luxuries are guilty of breaking the 8th commandment, of theft, and could go to jail. Without honestly, more and more people will be rewarded for cheating, and the number of cheaters will naturally GROW, until it bankrupts the system for the honest poor. All the passion in the world won't pay the bills.

When I worked in New York, there were so many people working for cash under the table in many parts of the city. The exorbitant taxes motivate more and more people to work for cash under the table and cheat the system. This is not exclusive to NYC at all. A high percentage people rationalize why they should be able to cheat the system and not feel badly about it. I frequently heard phrases like" they force you to cheat" and "he's too honest for his own good." It's sad, when people actually disrespect you as being a sucker or a fool for being honest! Imagine being disrespected for your honesty! Marketing experts say that trends start in the large cities and migrate to the small cities, then to the suburbs. I don't want society to be a place where so many people feel compelled to lie, cheat, and steal, where the next generation learns it, then it is rationalized into acceptability. I know there are many genuinely poor people who honestly need our tax dollars for health care and they deserve it. Without honestly, more and more people will be rewarded for cheating, and the number of cheaters will naturally GROW. "The System" will go bankrupt once the cheaters outnumber the honest poor and we default on our debt. It seems that when lower income individuals asked for support 50 years ago, they didn't have drug habits to support, large screen TVs, today's expensive fashion and entertainment bling, etc.

So, if this dishonest trend continues, it appears we have a poverty more of honesty and less of money. The media creates the culture. The culture elects the politicians. Look how ugly it has become. The taxpayers don't trust the people and the system: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=428567. Peoples' frustration comes from the gross lack of honesty. If everyone were forced to tell the truth, healthcare would be easy and taxpayers would feel justified that the genuinely poor are truly being helped. People who receive social services when they are buying optional luxuries are guilty of breaking the 8th commandment, of theft, and could go to jail.

I just want to bring attention through the original post to the fact that some people want our country to go into more debt. If our country defaults on this debt, we may be owned by our debtors, mainly China.


#6

You also find cheaters in law school, medical school, government, everywhere. Have you seen the curb rates for law schools and medical schools? They ENCOURAGE cheating too, to "foster competition". You want a cheater for a doctor or lawyer, who could extort you? And you wonder why honest doctors and lawyers face stigma.

Trust me, it's not just the poor. The rich and powerful have also proven to be stunning examples of corruption.

I agree, there are problems. We've had to deal with women who stole from our pregnancy resource center, which made it harder for the honest women who needed diapers and baby clothes. But they're not just poor people's problems. There are rich people who will lie, cheat, and steal, too. Bernie Madoff?

I think we need to remove cheating and opportunities from ALL sectors of society.


#7

Yes, all income groups cheat to some extent. The Cap and Trade gas tax will make everday life more expensive for everyone in the U.S. The salaried employees who cannot cheat on their incomes pay a higher degree of those tax increases than those working for cash under the table. Hence, frustration builds from those "rich" people on salary, while someone making the same income in cash is in reality the rich one since there are less taxes.


#8

My experience is that the responsible, penny-pinching poor are the ones you will never know are in need. Only the irresponsible poor are visible.

A responsible poor person wears nice clothes, because they have put time and effort into finding nice hand-me-downs. There are plenty of them for free or cheap, if you’re willing to put forth some time and effort to find them.

They don’t socialize much because they are too busy outside of work cooking from scratch and trawling Craig’s List for the things their family needs either free or cheap - diapers, clothing, a stroller for the baby. Because of this, they don’t make friends easily, and few people know about their situation.

They may even drive a reliable car - perhaps a gift from their worried parents who wanted a visit from the grandkids occasionally, or perhaps something they bought on loan after learning that a $300 payment was cheaper than a $600 a month average repair bill for their junker, and realizing that $300 of savings can feed a family of four for a month with a savvy shopper.

You might see them giving canned goods to St. Vincent de Paul - they KNOW what hunger feels like, and know some people have it worse. So when they see a really good sale, they get extra and share. It’s not 10% of their income, but surely it means something in the Lord’s eyes.

They aren’t homeless, because their mortgage or rent is something they owe. They would skip meals before skipping a rent payment. They have a job - it just doesn’t pay well.

Why would you notice these people? How could you ever recognize them without prying into the details of their lives?


#9

I don’t understand why there would be such a negative attitude toward poor people on a Catholic forum.

You do realize that many people who are poor are still hardworking, and may work more than one job to get by? The system in America is such that they get paid very little for their work, even though their work is needed to keep society going. If you want to be outraged, be outraged at the fact that the top 1% has something like 50% of the wealth.

I guess if someone who works 2 jobs but doesn’t make enough to afford healthcare better never see a movie or a sports game to deserve your help? But people born into wealth, bred to rule, who may not work very hard on a day to day basis “deserve” their wealth, and are perfectly justified in paying slave wages to some of their employees?


#10

[quote="LongingForLight, post:8, topic:187076"]
My experience is that the responsible, penny-pinching poor are the ones you will never know are in need. Only the irresponsible poor are visible.

A responsible poor person wears nice clothes, because they have put time and effort into finding nice hand-me-downs. There are plenty of them for free or cheap, if you're willing to put forth some time and effort to find them.

They don't socialize much because they are too busy outside of work cooking from scratch and trawling Craig's List for the things their family needs either free or cheap - diapers, clothing, a stroller for the baby. Because of this, they don't make friends easily, and few people know about their situation.

They may even drive a reliable car - perhaps a gift from their worried parents who wanted a visit from the grandkids occasionally, or perhaps something they bought on loan after learning that a $300 payment was cheaper than a $600 a month average repair bill for their junker, and realizing that $300 of savings can feed a family of four for a month with a savvy shopper.

You might see them giving canned goods to St. Vincent de Paul - they KNOW what hunger feels like, and know some people have it worse. So when they see a really good sale, they get extra and share. It's not 10% of their income, but surely it means something in the Lord's eyes.

They aren't homeless, because their mortgage or rent is something they owe. They would skip meals before skipping a rent payment. They have a job - it just doesn't pay well.

Why would you notice these people? How could you ever recognize them without prying into the details of their lives?

[/quote]

Thank you so much for this post Longing for Light!

It's funny, because I think that most of the people in our parish think our family is pretty well off. The ones who went to my daughter's first birthday party know that we haven't had running water for four years (we're hoping to move into a HUD subsidized apartment before #2 is born if anything opens up). My husband works and goes to school full time. And I've been completely honest on our forms when we applied for Medi-Cal and after almost a year and a half we were finally approved. I've been amazed at how many "it's so easy to be poor, these people are just bilking the system" type of posts I've seen lately.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.... life was definitely easier before my husband lost his last job 1 month after our daughter was born... when we weren't on any sort of assistance for food or medical needs. And I'll be glad when we're off them again. But with 20% unemployment in our county I'm thankful he has the job that he has.

Heck after reading the first post I was feeling guilty for buying my daughter a $5 barbie this last week and some toy gardening tools that were in the dollar bin at Target.

I also wouldn't be surprised if you found people on public assistance who have "nice things" in their homes. A lot of people had one lifestyle, lost their jobs, and now have another. We have a moderately sized tv (without cable) hooked up to an old dvd player. We got the tv back when things were good (and it was on sale after Christmas) and apparently the state of California didn't want to take it in exchange for our health care (if getting health care had been that simple I would have dropped it off myself!).

Between working the local soup kitchen and experiencing poverty myself these past years I haven't seen much of the cushy life I see described by people with very little compassion.


#11

Here is another definition of poor, one that resonates for my generation.
You may have your own home, paid for, and on a retirement income that has been severely curtailed due to the malfeasance and criminal activity not to mention general recklessness of people in charge of your investments, you can manage taxes, insurance and utilities. This retirement income has been generated btw entirely by your own efforts, scrimping and saving, not subsidized by anyone else, and consists of money that was already taxed once, twice even 3 times as you earned it. You own a TV, car, some furniture, clothing and household goods--old but well cared for and still serviceable. You don't drive much because of the cost of gas. Your recreations are walking, for your health, house or yard work, helping neighbors, maybe volunteering at church or in the community, but may have to curtail some of this because you want to stretch that tank of gas.

By your SS benefit, also miniscule compared to the SS taxes you have paid all your life, you can cover your medicare, but not any kind of supplemental plan, for that you would have do without food, although your diet is quite simple and revolves around your medical conditions--hbp, diabetes, heart whatever. With what little is left over you can pay for some, but not all of the prescribed medications your doctor recommends. In any case, you don't see him as often because coming up with a copay means no groceries for a week. Your health gradually declines as necessary meds to manage your conditions are not taken optimally, no matter how careful you are. Then a crisis comes--a heart attack, bad asthma attack, accident whatever. In a matter of days you have racked up thousands in medical bills, of which medi and insurance cover if you are very lucky 50-70%.

You have now joined a nation of debtors, you who have not used a credit card for years, and you know you will die in debt. the worst of it is you now have lost even the luxury of giving to others, your children, neighbors, church, the poor. Now it is a matter of dignity but in a few months it will come down to a matter of life or existence.

So I come to your home to help you, coming from your parish, and say well look at her nice things? why does she need help? Like you have to wallow in a sty to be needy?

To ask the question in that way, IMO betrays a mean spirit and grumbling about one's own possessions, rather than a Christlike concern for our brothers, and if we approach any of this "helping" with that attitude we need a 2x4 to the heart.


#12

[quote="flyingfish, post:9, topic:187076"]
I don't understand why there would be such a negative attitude toward poor people on a Catholic forum.

You do realize that many people who are poor are still hardworking, and may work more than one job to get by? The system in America is such that they get paid very little for their work, even though their work is needed to keep society going. If you want to be outraged, be outraged at the fact that the top 1% has something like 50% of the wealth.

I guess if someone who works 2 jobs but doesn't make enough to afford healthcare better never see a movie or a sports game to deserve your help? But people born into wealth, bred to rule, who may not work very hard on a day to day basis "deserve" their wealth, and are perfectly justified in paying slave wages to some of their employees?

[/quote]

Great post!


#13

I've gone without groceries to pay rent.

People would think, "Oh, but she's in college, and she gets help with tuition! She couldn't possibly!"

I have. Guess I should sell my iPod, guitar, Our Lady of Fatima/Guadalupe statues, computer (which I need for school) and bed. Even though they were all gifts.

I have an aunt who works day and night to support her son, gets state insurance to pay for his medications, and still sacrifices around Christmas time, to buy small presents for people.

My mom knows people who were afraid of taking their sick child to the doctor because they couldn't pay and because Medi-caid didn't go through.

It's like complaining that the Church is too rich........Yeah, yet, I don't see those same people advocate for the selling of the Pietá or the Sistine Chapel.

Like I said, it's not that you don't have people scamming.....but you also have Bernie Madoffs and others.

Not being able to feed your kids is frightening. Worrying about eviction is scary. Losing your job is horrible.

Prayers that we may come together and end all the world's evils.


#14

[quote="flyingfish, post:9, topic:187076"]
I don't understand why there would be such a negative attitude toward poor people on a Catholic forum.

You do realize that many people who are poor are still hardworking, and may work more than one job to get by? The system in America is such that they get paid very little for their work, even though their work is needed to keep society going. If you want to be outraged, be outraged at the fact that the top 1% has something like 50% of the wealth.

I guess if someone who works 2 jobs but doesn't make enough to afford healthcare better never see a movie or a sports game to deserve your help? But people born into wealth, bred to rule, who may not work very hard on a day to day basis "deserve" their wealth, and are perfectly justified in paying slave wages to some of their employees?

[/quote]

Well said, I really think the OP has not a clue on the Working Poor.


#15

Thanks for sharing!!!!

Health insurance tx


#16

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