Heaven is in the heart according to Non-Catholic Christian friend


#1

I had this discussion with a Non-Catholic Christian friend. He interpret heaven as in the heart. It is also where you find Jesus. He also said that it is necessary to go to the Church because the church too in the heart.

While there are some partial truths in his interpretation, I also find some errors. Spiritually speaking yes, Jesus is in us, and heaven as well. I do disagree that the Church is in us. Church is more of a place you go to worship God publicly.

I think he was very sincere in his thinking. I had told him that his interpretation is rather interesting, but further from the truth. I do believe that going to Church is necessary. I don’t care if you are Catholic or Protestant, my friend, but you need to go to Church period.

You can’t be going home and read the Bible and say that is Church. I think this is a departure from a tradition role of the Church and breaks the second commandment.


#2

The idea that one has no need to go to Church is a version of the gospel compromised by Western Individualism and made most possbile by Protestant doctrines such as individual salvation and sola scriptura.

To quote Father Thomas Hopko “there is no such thing as an individual- he was created, probably, in a Western European university”

Community is an essential dimension of human reality and only from it can the individual actually derive his unique significance. Salvation too must be a communal labor because there is nothing to save in an individual alone. By that I mean we are not a series of mini self-enclosed universes who contain all that is sufficent for ourselves* in ourselves*. We must love one another as ourselves, we must love both God and neighbour and love Christ through loving our neighbour. Our significane is in one another and most of all, in one another in God. We can only speak of an individual to be saved when including that person’s relation to others.

To say that Jesus is “just in the heart” or that heaven is “just in the heart” might represent this dangerous individualism where we find everything neccessary already contained in the isolated individual. Christ came to restore community, not to break it up into little personal pieces.


#3

It is in the heart - though, that truth needs to be supplemented by other truths. But AFA it goes, it’s true.


#4

Hello Manny,

You are both just as incorrect in your use of “church.” No need to knock your friend then.


#5

The Bible tells us that we are supposed to meet together for worship. From the NASB:

Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


#6

I don’t see Manny as “knocking” his friend in how he views Heaven and church.

What seems to be a more pertinent question then is what is definition of “church?” Is it a body of people with the same beliefs? Is it a sacred place of worship? Who or what is Paul referring to when he states to Timothy (1 Tim 3:15) “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth?” It appears that many different interpretations of what the word “church” means.

It is up to us to find out what that truly means.


#7

There is no mystery here.

There are only a couple of definitions of the word “church” as used in NT Scripture. Not one of them is a “place” where you go.


#8

What about here? From the NASB:

Act 14:23 When they had appointed5500 elders4245 for them in every2596 church1577, having prayed4336 with fasting3521, they commended3908 them to the Lord2962 in whom3739 they had believed4100.

From Strong’s:

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.


#9

No. Not even there, Laura.


#10

hmmm…well, then, if scripture doesn’t really define ‘church’ as you say, what is it exactly? You say it’s not a ‘place.’ You reject what Manny’s non-Catholic friend defines it as…I’m just a little confused as to where you are going with this. :confused:

Or, as you seem to be implying, Christ never really meant to have a church???


#11

Which chamber?

Does arterioschlerosis make the narrow gate even narrower?

Is Lipitor a sacramental?

I keed.

I keed because I luuuv.


#12

Well, my friend is erroneous that Church is no longer necessary. Um. The Church according to 1 Tim 3:15 is the "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth

and how exactly am I wrong? All I’m saying is that as Christians we do need the Church.

Paul said that the Jesus is the Head of the Body, the Church. Can a body handling himself without the head?

Let me put it this way, if someone cuts off your hand. That hand which is cut off will eventually die off or decay. The blood which nourishes it is cut off.

Likewise, a Christian who is a part of the Mystical Body of Christ has cut off the lifeline, Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. He has cut off the spiritual lifeline by slowly breaking himself apart from the head.

My friend, a Christian needs the Church. God say, “thou shall keep the sabbath day holy.”

For us Christians, the Sabbath Day is Sunday, since Jesus resurrected on a Sunday, the first day of the week.


#13

Where I am going?

Manny’s friend was incorrect.
Manny was also incorrect.

The OP has no such soapbox to point out the mistake of others when they themself remain in no less error.


#14

Of course, you will not find anywhere where I said any such thing, but that hasn’t stopped you from claiming so.

and how exactly am I wrong?

“Church is more of a place you go to worship God publicly”

“Church” is never a “place” in Scripture.

I understand your error is very common today and is popular usage, but it is no less an error than the one you claim for your friend.

My friend, a Christian needs the Church. God say, “thou shall keep the sabbath day holy.”

For us Christians, the Sabbath Day is Sunday, since Jesus resurrected on a Sunday, the first day of the week.

Sorry. This is only more error.

The Sabbath is not Sunday and was never Sunday.

You should not be posting about your friend’s errors until you have corrected your own.


#15

“Church is more of a place you go to worship God publicly”

“Church” is never a “place” in Scripture.

I understand your error is very common today and is popular usage, but it is no less an error than the one you claim for your friend.

The Church is a place. It is true that you can worship God anywhere but I believe where the community of believers gather, prayful worship in a Church is the prayer made perfect.

The Sabbath is not Sunday and was never Sunday.

[quote]You should not be posting about your friend’s errors until you have corrected your own.

According to who? you? Don’t make me laugh. Sunday is the new day of workship. Sabbath was originally Saturday.

Wikipedia states,

Originally denoting Saturday, the seventh day of the week (or, more precisely, the time period from Friday sunset to Saturday nightfall), the term “sabbath” can now mean one of several things, depending on the context and the speaker:

Sunday, as a synonym for “the Lord’s Day” in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ, for most other Christian groups.
[/quote]


#16

So now we have a Protestant claiming the sabbath is Saturday and that the Eastern Orthodox were right about the Filioque.

As soon as Atemi gets around to proclaiming Mohammad the prophet of God, he’ll hit for the non-Catholic trifecta!


#17

He is in error. The NT often speaks of the First Day of the Week as the Lord’s Day… LOL… Sabbath is Sunday for Christians technically speaking…

For Jews its Saturday… I don’t think I am in error here. He is.


#18

Not only that, but it’s fairly well-attested that the move to Sunday in celebration of the Resurrection was controversial. Some early Christians went to Temple on Saturday and Mass on Sunday until finally eschewing Temple altogether.

To acknowledge such historical reality would be to lend credence to the Church’s claims in some quarters, I suppose, and so we get treated to Protestants keeping Jewish calendars and Orthodox creeds.

But WE’RE not unified. Got it.


#19

You most definitely are in error.

There is no such thing as the Sunday being the Sabbath day. The Scriptures are plain on this point. Just read Acts alone to correct this mistake.

Church is not a place, and Sunday is not the Sabbath.

Sorry.


#20

You are in error, my Protestant friend.

So the Magisterium of Atemi declared me to be in Error. Anyone who agrees with Manny let him be an Anathema.

You want proof that in Acts, the new Sabbath is the First Day of the Week. Ok.

Let us take a look them.

Book of Acts Chapter 20 verse 7.

7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.

Question: What is the first day of the week? Is it a Sunday or Saturday?

If you Sunday you are correct. Hence, the Sunday is the New Sabbath.

Let see where else in the Bible says where Christian gathered.

Ooo oooo… I found another…

1 Corinthians Chapter 16.

2 On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.

Ok. Now let’s see whether or not the claim that the Church is not place.

22 And the tidings came to the ears of the church that was at Jerusalem, touching these things: and they sent Barnabas as far as Antioch. Acts Chapter 11 verse 22.

Ok it is apparently a place and also group of believers. My friend. A Church is a place and it is community of believers.

Now let’s look at the Greek behind the word Church.

A church is an association of people who share a particular belief system. The term church originated from Greek “κυριακή” - “kyriake”,[1] meaning “of the lord”. The term later began to replace the Greek ekklesia and basilica within Christendom, c. AD 300, though it was used by Christians before that time.

The Christian word “Church” is used erroneously for the Greek “εκκλησία” — ekklesia, ref. Strong’s Concordance — 1577, Bauer’s, Thayer’s, and Moulton’s) is mentioned in the New Testament. Of the 114 occurrences of the term in the New Testament, Three are** found in the Gospel accounts, all spoken by Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew**: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my ekklesia, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Mt 16:18); and “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the ekklesia; and if he refuses to listen even to the ekklesia, let him be to you as the Gentile and the tax-collector” (Mt 18:17).

The Greek term εκκλησία —** ekklesia, which literally means a “gathering or selection i.e. “eklectic” in English” or “called out assembly”, was a governmental and political term, used to denote a national assembly, congregation, council of common objective** (see Ecclesia (ancient Athens), Ecclesia (Church)) or a crowd of people who were assembled. It did not signify a “building”.

The Christian **use of this term has its direct antecedent in the Koine Greek translation of the Old Testament **(see also Septuagint), where the noun ekklesia has been employed 96 times to denote the congregation of the Children of Israel, which Christians regard as a type of the “Body of Christ”, as they also call the Christian Church of Christ.

Summary: I don’t deny that the Church is not only a place. It is a place and also a community of believers. I have pointed out the Greek behind the word “Church.” So am I in error. Nope. Atemi is.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.