Hebrews 10:11-18 No more sacrifices needed?


#1

I need help with Hebrews 10:11-18. In summary the verses seem to support the protestant view that Jesus died once for all, and that there is no need for the eternal perpetual sacrifice of the Mass given my Catholic Priests. " But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God… For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified…I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more…Where there is forgiveness of these; there is no longer any offering for sin."

When reading this it sounds like the Mass is not needed to continue offering up Christ’s body, and also seems like confession may not be really needed because when Christ died for our sins, He sat down as if to say it is finished, and now that it is finished God does not remember our transgressions, all is for given, and no more offerings are needed.

I am really confused. My protestant friends throw this verse at me all the time and I have no defense for it at all. I have tried to show them other verses in the bible that support the Catholic Mass, but they say that using other bible verses does not explain this particular grouping of bible verses. They would like me to explain these verses only. They say that citing other verses is just a catholic apologetic technique to avoid answering the real question or admitting what the bible plainly says. Can anyone help? They are also not interested in what the “Fathers” of the Church have to say or in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Please help. I am a convert and questions like these shake my faith a little.


#2

I went through this EXACT same thing!!! :slight_smile: The easy answer, as given me by a wonderful priest and taken straight from the Catechism, is that we are not re-sacrificing Jesus in the Mass. The Eucharist is the same, once-for-all sacrifice, literally re-presented to us. God is outside the constraints of time :slight_smile:
Peace and good, Laura <3


#3

Trent, Session XXII
**He instituted a new Passover, namely, Himself, to be *immolated *under visible signs *by *the Church *through *the priests in memory of His own passage from this world to the Father… For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different. The fruits of that bloody sacrifice, it is well understood, are received most abundantly through this unbloody one, so far is the latter from derogating in any way from the former.

So the Church does speak of more than one sacrifice


#4

Rather, in that very passage you quoted, she speaks of more than one method of offering the one and only pure and acceptable sacrifice.

Usagi


#5

Christ did die once for all.

*The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (Romans 6:10)

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)*

Christ dying once for everyone is not a Protestant doctrine. It is straight out of the Bible.

The Mass is the way that death becomes present and accessible “to all” in time and space.

-Tim-


#6

There was a similar thread recently that went into this area, and it got me thinking…I mean, we all are forgiven our sins due to that ONE act of Jesus of being tortured and killed on the cross, but when you look at the big picture, it was basically one day of suffering for him, Im not saying it was not absolutely terrible thing, but there are plenty of people who have lived with horrible pain for decades, those in concentration camps that were not allowed death, the Nazis ensured they come close to death, and then stop, so they could continue the suffering later, so while the death of Jesus was horrible, it was not drawn out over long periods of time, it was relatively quick.

Plus, the question of what the actual sacrifice was in the crucifixion came up, Im still a bit confused to be honest, Jesus knew this was going to happen, it was the plan, for him to suffer and pay the price for all our future sins so to speak, but with him being divine AND man, he knew this was not really death, sort of saying " I will cut off my arm as a sacrifice to you, but the whole time, knowing it would grow back a day later"…can that really be called a sacrifice?

I almost wish I had never read that post, Im trying to make sense of it all though.


#7

On the Cross Our Lord willingly accepted and experienced all the suffering of all the people who had or would or will ever live. He offered all of this to the Father and atoned for all of the sins of all those who had or would or will ever live. . . . We cannot even begin to comprehend what He endured for our salvation. Our only decision is to accept and receive the grace He offers, or to reject/refuse it.


#8

But it only took a day or 2 at the most (in human time mind you)? Plus, when Jesus was suffering, he knew as soon as his earthly body died, it was all over, he knew exactly what was going to happen after he passed over.

The definition of sacrifice (in this aspect), means to give up something for the good of something or someone else.


#9

From what you said, it looks as tho there is confusion about what a true sacrifice is.

A sacrifice has a priest, victim, altar, and death. The old testiment sacrifices were about animals but the new testiment sacrifice is about Jesus as victim. Yes he died once because that is what happens to a victim of sacrifice. And yes he will die no more…but then who would want him to die again and again?

And so the graces given to the world are from his body and blood sacrificed on the altar of the cross. And to reach those who were not present at that time of his sacrifice to receive the mercies of God, now it is possible to be present at that sacrifice of Jesus in the Mass to receive his mercies.

But it dosen’t mean that he suffered more than anyone else, but that is not necessarily what sacrifice is about. It is about the victim dying…sacrificing their life…not living the longest and most painful life. But for those who live long and painful lives, there is now hope from Jesus’ promise to reward them for their fidelity by being close to him forever. So their pain now is worth a great deal and has value by being united with his sacrificial sacramental offering at Mass.

May God be kind and merciful to you.


#10

I tend to think he just suffered, physically, what was inflicted on Him


#11

Interestingly, if one is a Molinist he cannot say things like “we need to offer the sacrifice of the Mass everyday to appease the Father”. It only makes sense for an Augustinian


#12

I’ve read repeatedly that Jesus suffers constantly due to our sin and indifference. So His death may have been quick. His suffering was not, it continues, and will continue. It’s why we are called to make reparations, to do penance, to ask for His Divine Mercy.


#13

Aacatholicmom.

You wanted some help with Hebrews 10.

**First the background regarding Hebrews . . . **

Hebrews is a book written to Jewish converts to Christianity reminding them that although they will be under persecution for their faith, and there will be temptations to go back to the Old Covenant belief system . . . . “DON’T DO IT!”

Don’t go back to the Old Testament (Covenant) sacrifices that cannot deliver you from sin! These mere Old Covenant sacrifices such as the blood of bulls and goats and burnt offerings cannot save you (or anyone else). That’s WHY Old Covenant saints only could get to “the bosom of Abraham” and not Heaven.

Sacrifices (such as these specifically discussed in Hebrews 10) God said, “I do not desire.”

These Old Covenant sacrifices were a mere “shadow” of the good things to come in the New Covenant (Hebrews 10:1).

And now that you are here in the New Covenant, STAY in the New Covenant because if you LEAVE this New Covenant . . . WHAT?

What happens?

Nothing? No.

What happens?

Do I “get saved anyway because there was one once for all sacrifice for sins?” No!

What happens for these guys who come into the New Covenant, and now know better. They were re-born of water and the Spirit or as Heb. 10:22 says; “our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” What happens to these guys who come into the New Covenant and thus were “enlightened” by the Holy Spirit (through teaching and Baptism—Matthew 28:19-20) and leave the New Covenant anyway to avoid . . . persecution?

What happens to them?

Fortunately the author of Hebrew tells us.

There NO LONGER remains a sacrifice for them!

HEBREWS 10:23-27 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

Now this does not mean these apostates (people who left the faith) cannot repent and come back to the faith? No. And if you want I can address “why” later. But for now, I think you want a broader principle (later in the thread if you want we can get into specifics).

I’ll try to put up more details tomorrow concerning your actual questions.

Hope this is helping.

God bless.

Cathoholic


#14

If I start to think about this stuff too deeply I become confused. And then I realize that I can’t even begin to understand most of the things of God with my human mind. I guess this is where faith comes in. Sometimes we simply have to have faith. There are times when I decide I need to stop defending and simply continue believing. I hope my post did not upset you too much. BTW thank you to all those that responded and have tried to help. It has brought great comfort to me to know that there are those strong in their faith and those just like me who become confused at times.

Tiffany


#15

This has helped tremendously! Can I pick your brain a little bit more? When is says “there is no longer any sacrifice for sin etc… etc…” Does that mean that those of us that have been baptized and know the truth, that if we sin, say mortally sin, that Jesus’ sacrifice is no longer efficacious until we go to confession, repent, and then go to mass to offer up Jesus body again as a new sacrifice? Is this why at Mass we have to offer up his body as sacrifice again and again because we continue to sin? Does my question make sense?


#16

Im not upset all, thats what this forum is all about, different people, different opinions, its all good.


#17

Aacatholicmom. You said in post 15 here:

When is says “there is no longer any sacrifice for sin etc… etc…”

I’ll try to get to these things later in the thread but I think you will be able to answer these questions yourself as this thread goes on.

You mentioned in your original post (post #1):

QUOTE:
I need help with Hebrews 10:11-18. In summary the verses seem to support the protestant view that Jesus died once for all, and that there is no need for the eternal perpetual sacrifice of the Mass given my Catholic Priests. " But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God… For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified…I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more…Where there is forgiveness of these; there is no longer any offering for sin."

Let’s break this down in small bites.

QUOTE:
I need help with Hebrews 10:11-18. In summary the verses seem to support the protestant view that Jesus died once for all, . . .

First of all, Jesus DID die ONCE for all. Jesus’ sacrifice was in time, but His sacrifice transcends time. That’s why Revelation 13:8 talks about Jesus sacrifice being offered “before the foundation of the world”.

Not because Jesus’ sacrifice was carried out in (whatever) B.C. before the world was made, but because His sacrifice in A.D. 33 (or whatever) transcends time.

QUOTE:
. . . . and that there is no need for the eternal perpetual sacrifice . . .

If there is “no need for perpetual sacrifice”, WHY would Jesus’ sacrifice transcend time? After all, if there is “no need”, why does Jesus sacrifice carry backward AND forward?

Because there IS a need for the “eternal perpetual sacrifice” and Jesus furnishes that need.

QUOTE:
. . . . and that there is no need for the eternal perpetual sacrifice of the Mass given my Catholic Priests.

OK. This is their real objection I suspect. The **Ministerial Priesthood **(and the Mass). (More on that later if you want me to expound on that).

QUOTE:
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God…

This is just fine. No objection from me here.

I beg your pardon in advance, but I want to go over (at least) twice your next point, because the answer has several dimensions. (bold and ul mine) I will also anticipate some questions your Protestant friends may have.

QUOTE:
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified…

Q: A “SINGLE OFFERING”! Wouldn’t that “do away” with any other “offering” like a “Catholic Priest” and the “Sacrifice” of the Mass?

A: No.

Q: Why not? What can you Catholics “ADD” to Jesus’ sacrifice? WHY try to “ADD” to Jesus’ sacrifice?

A: Because there is “one” “once for all” sacrifice from Jesus . . . . Does this mean Jesus suffered and died . . .

Because there is “one” “once for all” sacrifice from Jesus . . . . Does this mean Jesus suffered and died . . .

A. So we don’t have to? . . . OR . . .
B. So we can (by His grace) have our sacrifices UNITED to His “once for all” Sacrifice?

Fortunately we have the answer just a few verses later and in Romans 6.

When we are Baptized (or born of “water and the Spirit”), we (by grace) are united to Christ’s life, death, and Resurrection.

So the correct answer is B. We are united to Jesus’ death. And the sacrifice we offer is united to Him

So these sacrifices are not “ADDED” to Christ’s sacrifice so much as they are “UNITED” to Christ’s “one” “once of all” sacrifice.

(Many of these guys see themselves united to the GLORY of Christ . . . . [yep that’s me] . . . but conveniently forget about being united to Jesus’ suffering and death [nope. None of that stuff for me].

They forget proverbial “Good Friday” comes before the proverbial “Easter Sunday”. Glory apart from the Cross is their motif. That’s what St. Peter thought BEFORE Jesus rebuked him saying, “Get behind me “opposer” or “satan” in Matthew 16:23. That’s what many “Rapturists” think today too.

But is that what the Bible teaches? No!)

Q: But are we REALLY “UNITED” to Jesus’ sacrifice?

A: Fortunately St. Paul answers that question so I don’t have to.

ROMANS 6:3-5 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Q: Well this is fine and dandy. But this is all an optional item . . . isn’t it?

A: No. It is NOT optional. Let’s again let St. Paul answer this . . . .

ROMANS 8:16-17 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.


#18

Aacatholicmom. I want to go over again, your prior point, because as I mentioned earlier the answer has several dimensions. (bold and ul mine) I again will also anticipate some questions your Protestant friends may have.

QUOTE:
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified…


Q: A “SINGLE OFFERING”! WHY do you Catholics keep offering Jesus over and over at Mass?

A: This is incorrect. We do not RE-Sacrifice Jesus in the Mass (or anywhere else)!

We participate in Jesus’ ONE ONCE for all sacrifice on Calvary.

We somehow supernaturally have Christ’s one sacrifice made present to us through the Mass. And by grace, we are called to offer ourselves in union with Christ which is (part of) our spiritual worship!

This is likely WHY St. Paul tells us to present our bodies as a living sacrifice in the context of “what is acceptable and perfect”.

ROMANS 12:1-2 1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

The Church now puts it this way (bold mine, italics original) . . .

CCC 1330a The memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. . . . .

The prophets of old (prophesying about the Mass), put it this way . . .

MALACHI 1:10-11 10 Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.


**
CATHOLIC to Non-Catholic friends in such a discussion**: Why do YOU GUYS “accept Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and Savior?” I mean after all, if Jesus’ sacrifice was 2000 years ago, why do YOU think you can be united to His ONCE for all sacrifice TODAY?

Non-Catholic: “Well you don’t understand Cathoholic (or who ever). We are not “sacrificing Jesus” when we accept Him into our hearts as personal Lord and Savior. We are uniting ourselves to His one, once for all Sacrifice.”

CATHOLIC: I understand just fine. And we as Catholics are doing this too. Only what Catholics do is in Scripture. What you are reducing your uniting to Jesus’ Sacrifice is a non-Scriptural tradition of men.

(There is nothing wrong per se with asking Jesus into your heart. We Catholics do this frequently. We call it a “Spiritual Communion.”

But my objection lies in how you REDUCE being born from above to ignoring Jesus’ command to be “born of water and the Spirit.” And furthermore my objection is you applying this “once for all” objection against Catholicism, when YOU YOURSELF are carrying out some of the same principles.)

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. And we are called to keep this fulfilled Passover.

It is a perpetual offering. The Passover is immemorial and for ever. Which is WHY at the end of the book of Revelation at the end of the Bible, when all the elect are safely in Heaven, we participate in the “Wedding Feast of the Lamb.”

Continued in next post . . .


#19

Continued from last post . . .

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. And we are called to keep this fulfilled Passover.

Catholics do not deny the “once for all” aspect of Jesus’ sacrifice.

CCC 571 The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplished "once for all"313 by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice

CCC 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

Q: Well WHY do you Catholics think that Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary transcends TIME?

A: This is a mystery. We already talked about Revelation 13:8. Jesus’ sacrifice is different than all other sacrifices because of who He is. Jesus is True God and True man. Jesus’ sacrifice is unique.

CCC 1085 In the liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present. During his earthly life Jesus announced his Paschal mystery by his teaching and anticipated it by his actions. When his Hour comes, he lives out the unique event of history which does not pass away: Jesus dies, is buried, rises from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father "once for all."8 His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is - all that he did and suffered for all men - participates in the divine eternity, **and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. **The event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.

The Eucharist re-presents (makes present) Jesus’ sacrifice of the cross. Our bodily nature demands some sort of bodily re-presentation.

CCC 1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189

Objection: You Catholics talk like this event in time is different from all other events in time.

Answer: That is right. As we stated earlier in CCC 1085 (and now below), this sacrifice of Jesus is utterly unique.

CCC 1545a The redemptive sacrifice of Christ is unique, accomplished once for all; yet it is made present in the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Church. . . . .

This is probably way more than you wanted Aacatholicmom. But since others are reading this thread, I wanted to give some resources to save in people’s apologetics folders for this set of objections. Because these objections DO come up from time to time.

If there are any other questions concerning Hebrews, I will try to keep tabs on this thread a few more days.

I will also try to post some specifics soon concerning your question . . .

Can I pick your brain a little bit more? When is says “there is no longer any sacrifice for sin etc… etc…” Does that mean that those of us that have been baptized and know the truth, that if we sin, say mortally sin, that Jesus’ sacrifice is no longer efficacious until we go to confession, repent, and then go to mass to offer up Jesus body again as a new sacrifice? Is this why at Mass we have to offer up his body as sacrifice again and again because we continue to sin? Does my question make sense?


#20

“The fruits of that bloody sacrifice, it is well understood, are received most abundantly through this unbloody one, so far is the latter from derogating in any way from the former.” Trent

So it seems to say two sacrifices. Probably it just means the separate consecrations of the bread and wine. ]

Anyway, the I point I was trying to make is that someone cannot believe in Molinism and say, with Catholics saints, that the Masses must be continually offered to appease the anger of the Father. Do you guys understand what I mean here?


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