Hell is an eternal threat, even for the Saved in Heaven.


#1

Hey Christian! Assuming that christianity is true, have you ever realized that even when you get to heaven you can still go to hell?

You would ask “now why in heaven’s name would I do anything that would offend God?”. Well, why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the heavenly hosts?

In the bible, even good intentions can tick God off. Like when the Ark of the covenant fell on the side of the road and a poor fellow instinctly went and tried to catch it. Kazaaam! struck dead for touching the untouchable.

Think about it. The trinity is so fickle minded. :smiley:


#2

What makes you think they had already experienced the beatific vision?


#3

AgnosTheist, assuming Christianity is true, please dive in the New Testament and read further.

I am sure Christ has already answered your question.
Don’t take my words for it though, check it out yourself.


#4

The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called “vision” to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed “beatific”.

That came from your Catholic encyclopedia. Was Lucifer an angel? What about those who joined him?

Perfect happiness, yeah right. Tell that to Satan. :smiley:


#5

Satan saw God. He wanted more – he wanted “not God.” He had the free-will to reject God and did so, because following his own will was more important to him than happiness. You imply that anyone experiencing perfect happiness would never reject it, and that if they did it must not have been “perfect.” But our own experience tells us that people are often willing to make great sacrifices in personal happiness in order to have their own way. It isn’t happiness they want, it’s autonomy. God can’t give you happiness and autonomy at the same time, because as soon as you start making decisions that conflict with God, who is the ultimate Good, you make access to Good impossible. That’s not a flaw in happiness, it’s a flaw in Satan, who preferred his own will to God’s.


#6

wherever did christians really got such ideas about lucifer? from the bible?

show me it said that he wanted more.

show me where it said that he rejected god.

is lucifer stupid? If he had perfect happiness, is he stupid enough to fight an impossibility (God almighty) that he could see with his bare eyes (and therefore lose the ‘perfect happiness’)? its senseless.


#7

God first created intelligent beings, He has tested them all. Beginning with the angels, He is now testing us. First observation, the angels were not originally created in heaven, we speak using the words “the angels, some, fell from heaven,” but these words are not to be taken literally. No one who actually ever reaches heaven will lose the celestial beatitude. No less than we, the angels had to earn heaven. They possess what we would call sanctifying grace. Like us after being baptized, they possessed the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. But remember these are virtues to be used, they are graces to be cooperated with. The angels had to merit, or as defined in Latin, “earn,” they had to earn their eternal destiny.

What was the angels probation? We don’t know exactly how the angels were tried. However, it could only be on one of two conditions: Obedience to the God who created them and love of the God by whom and for whom they were made. And these two go together like condition and consequence. But the angels were to love God only in the measure they obeyed Him…

The Fall of the Angels


#8

It looks like it is defining beatific vision here. It doesn’t say anything about all the angels possessing the beatific vision at the time of thier testing. It in fact mentions the souls of the just, referring to humans who died and have gone to heaven. These could have only attained heaven after the testing of the angels. So we don’t know that the angels had the beatific vision at the time of thier testing from your post.


#9

well the bible doesnt really say much about satan. much of what christians know about him was a product of human creative thinking. :smiley:


#10

Wasnt Satan one of the major angels?


#11

No, no one who is in Heaven can go to Hell.

Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that fell were not created in Heaven and the did not fall in Heaven. Let me repeat: God did not create them in Heaven, as he did not create man in Heaven. The angels who chose God went to Heaven; the angels who rejected Him went to Hell. One more time: THE ANGELS WERE NOT CREATED IN HEAVEN AND THEY WERE NOT TESTED THERE.

As to your second point, haven’t you ever heard the phrase “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” ? Perhaps you ought to go and research the meaning of that scripture and why exactly the man died, instead of acting like you know better when you clearly don’t.

You really ought to learn how to read. The passage is cleraly talking about a present reality: the angels who are now in Heaven enjoy the beatific vision. Note the use of the word “enjoy” which is a verb in the present tense. Both the creation and the fall of 1/3 of the angels are past events. This passage is talking about the 2/3 of the angels who chose God and went to Heaven and now “enjoy” the beatific vision.

Your argument is based on the false notion that the angels were created in Heaven. I don’t know where you got that notion, but instead of coming here and mocking Christians, why don’t you go educate yourself instead?


#12

<>

I’ll bet you think your words are witty–and you’re half-right.


#13

whether or not the angels were created in heaven, the point is that they were all in heaven! read:

Revelation 12:7-9

  • 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.*

war in heaven? WHOA! Oh boy, there is really no such thing as ‘job security’ LOL! :stuck_out_tongue:


#14

Sorry, I meant to add something to this post, but I deleted it by accident. I will say what I meant to add in another post.

No, no one who is in Heaven can go to Hell.

Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that fell were not created in Heaven and the did not fall in Heaven. Let me repeat: God did not create them in Heaven, as he did not create man in Heaven. The angels who chose God went to Heaven; the angels who rejected Him went to Hell. One more time: THE ANGELS WERE NOT CREATED IN HEAVEN AND THEY WERE NOT TESTED THERE.

As to your second point, haven’t you ever heard the phrase “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” ? Perhaps you ought to go and research the meaning of that scripture and why exactly the man died, instead of acting like you know better when you clearly don’t.

You really ought to learn how to read. The passage is cleraly talking about a present reality: the angels who are now in Heaven enjoy the beatific vision. Note the use of the word “enjoy” which is a verb in the present tense. Both the creation and the fall of 1/3 of the angels are past events. This passage is talking about the 2/3 of the angels who chose God and went to Heaven and now “enjoy” the beatific vision.

Your argument is based on the false notion that the angels were created in Heaven. I don’t know where you got that notion, but instead of coming here and mocking Christians, why don’t you go educate yourself instead?


#15

please see my previous post.

you made that assumption.


#16

The words used in ancient languages that are translated as “Heaven” can also be translated as the “heavens” or the “sky.” Therefore it can also have a figurative meaning.

In this case, it is clear that the angels were not created/tested and did not fight in Heaven (as in the abode of the Blessed Trinity) but in the “heavens.”

Not all of the angels ever created went to Heaven, and only the ones that chose God entered Heaven. Satan never experienced the beatific vision, in other words, ortherwise he could not have sinned.

you made that assumption.

No, I did not. You made the assumption that Christians believe or that the Bible says that the angels that fell experienced the beatific vision or were in Heaven.


Why should Mary be a stumbling block!
#17

can you show me a catholic bible translation that does so?

i made the assumption that all the angels were in heaven. about the angels being created in heaven, thats you putting words into my mouth. :smiley:


#18

Lol! If I didn’t know better I would say that you are having fun!

KAZAAM!


#19

It’s okay for Agnos to have fun - he’s not Catholic!

WHABOOM! :wink:

Please, know I speak in friendly jest. But even in debate, especially about a somewhat dippy subject (and it kinda is one…) well, it’s nice to see a rather lighthearted and rambunctious tone around here now and then, particularly in NCR!


#20

They didn’t. It is a provable lie. You don’t know what you are arguing about.

bible-truths.com/lake9.html


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