Hello, need advice

Crono, since one of the issues raised at the site you posted is whether one should worship on Sunday or Saturday, here’s something from the Catholic Answers’ Library that gives the early Church Fathers teaching on the matter:

catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

crono_vivi,

You wrote: “Basically, it’s always bothered me how the Roman Catholic church inputs its own rules.”

You need to explain what “rules” you’re talking about. Perhaps if you gave us some examples, we could help you understand the basis for them.

You wrote: " I always wondered how they can make some of their rules when there is nothing in the Bible to back them up"

The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible—does that mean it’s false? How do you define “back them up”? There is more direct Biblical “back up” for the papacy and for the Eucharist (both of which you are apparently now thinking of rejecting, as to reject Catholicism menas rejecting those) then there is for the Trinity. Also, there is no Church doctrine you can come up with that is contradicted in Scripture—not one.

You wrote: “The program used to confirm us was a joke. I really learned nothing. We were taught things that we learned in 2nd Grade. Seriously.”

I believe you. I grew up in the seventies, and had lousy faith formation too. I left the Church for many years. However, the fact is that Truth does not rely upon the worthiness, or unworthiness, of the messenger. And you do have access to correct Catholic teaching, regardless of the deficiencies of any particular program: there is the Catechism, for starters; there are thousands of excellent, orthodox books that can guide you in your search for understanding the Church. It is up to you to make an honest search, though, and if you’re willing to “jump ship” after such a short period of time (and apparently without research) than I don’t know what to say that can help, as it is then an emotional, not rational, decision.

I still don’t understand the whole Yahweh thing. That site presents lots of arguments on the matter. Is there anything on this site to dispute?

[quote=crono_vivi]Hmm traditions I have questions about.

How about:

Worshipping Mary? Isn’t that Idolatry?

Umm, and the Pope being Infallible? Not sure if I believe that.

And confession, don’t understand why I should confess to another human being, when God should be my only Judge.
[/quote]

Hold on tight…you’ll recieve alot of quick responses!

Mary is not worshipped…she is revered as the greatest saint, and we ask Mary to pray for us. The communion of saints is what its called, and basically it means that when a person dies in Christ Jesus, He is more alive than we are, and we have access to him. The church is like an ice berg…the tip is the living…look under the water and you see the majority of the church. We are all one…and we can ask for help…and prayers from all members…just like you ask someone to pray for you that you know…we know these folks through writing and their lives…to me it is very comforting…we try to emmulate them and ask for their help.

Hi Crono -
The Early Church Fathers do not use the name Yahweh in their writings the way this group does. Also, the name was not used by the writers of the New Testament, and it doesn’t appear in any of the thousands of ancient manuscripts of the New Testament. Ask yourself - why is that?

If you feel up to it, take a read of some of the Early Fathers - get a feel for the way they write and the things they talked about, and see how it jives up with this group you’re looking at. They were a lot, lot closer to the apostles than we are. Some of them were students of the apostles - Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome. Some were just one person removed, like Justin Martyr.

Some of it can be found over on the main CA website; there are other sites that have the entire writings posted. I’ll tell you straight out - there are a lot of people who, after searching for many years, have converted to the Catholic faith because of reading them, because they have drawn the conclusion that it is the Catholic church that most closely represents their beliefs. God bless.

[quote=crono_vivi]"Also, check out and see if the Early Fathers used the name Yahweh in their writings, as this group is doing. If not, why not? "

Do you know this offhand?

Trust me you guys, I’d much prefer to stay with Roman Catholicism. I just need to be shown the truth.
:frowning:
[/quote]

Well the GREAT news is that there are many, many GOOD Catholic sources of information to help you see the Truth.

Ask away - any specific questions - and people here will refer you to good sites, books, tapes, etc.

But, the key is to actually take the time to read the materials.

My son, at 15, did not think about leaving the Church, but he wasn’t sure about getting confirmed. He knew he believed in Jesus, so he wasn’t considering Judaism, and he knew the Catholic Church was THE Christian faith to belong to if one was to profess belief in Christ and all he said and did on this earth - as revealed through the bible. So it wasn’t a matter of switching denominations or anything.

But he was wanting to explore other beliefs.

My bottom line with him was that before he could pursue those other beliefs (buddhism, islam, whatever) he absolutely had to explore Catholicism first. This was so that he knew what he was rejecting before walking away.

I would suggest you approach it the same way. Learn everything you can, first, about Catholicism, before pursuing any other religion.

I bought several books for him which were recommended to me by his godparents, our priest, and Dr. Ray Girendi (from Relevant Radio).

By the way, DO find Relevant Radio in your area or visit it online. It is a real eye opener!! RelevantRadio.com…you can listen from your computer.

The books were:
The Case for Christ - from Lee Strobel
The Screwtape Letters - from C.S. Lewis
Mere Christianity - from C.S. Lewis
The Handbook of Christian Apologetics - Peter Kreft

The Case for Christ and The Screwtape Letters was pretty much all he needed to help him realize he was already ‘home’ so he went ahead with his confirmation preparation.

He, too, was not impressed with the confirmation training the first year (which kind of led to his thoughts about trying other religions) but the second year was a LOT better. There is a retreat called KAIROS which really made a difference for him. Check to see if there is a KAIROS retreat offered through your diocese and see what you can do to sign up for it.

My son was confirmed at 16 this year. He still is uncomfortable with being the only Catholic (let alone, Christian) in his circle of friends, but he understands more WHY he’s a Catholic and finds security in knowing he is on the right path.

Please let us help you learn more about Catholicism. I think you’ll enjoy the journey!

What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Also, you guys, I hope you don’t think this is an attack on Catholicism. I’m just trying to learn, so don’t take a defensive position please. :smiley:

EDIT: Also, what’s the difference between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism? Can you give me an unbiased breakdown? Thanks.

Crono,

It seems like you are an intelligent person and you are concerned and serious about deciding what you believe. This is a good thing, it shows that you dont’ view religion as a passive thing that you don’t need to think about. I understand what you’re going through, I’m only 21 so it wasn’t that long ago for me either. It is good to ask questions about your faith, to do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest. The idea that faith means disregarding and simply believing is a relatively modern one, it is a good thing to be able to understand what you believe and why you believe it.
In addition to my interest in my religion I take a keen interest in philosophy and history. Through studying these things I feel I have been able to gain an even deeper love and understanding of the Catholic faith. Unfortunately our generation has not received the best organized cathechesis, religious education in our Church is in a sorry state right now, and as a result we need to do a lot of the legwork on our own. If you are at all interested in the history of the Church, I would recommend H.W. Crocker’s Triumph. I will admit it is a slightly biased work, but all historical works are written from a particular perspective, and most of the history we learn is written from the English/Protestant perspective, for me this book just offered an alternate way of looking at things. If you are interested in all at philosophy there is no one better than St. Thomas Aquinas. My second major here at school is philosophy, and no matter what I study (Neitsczhe, Kant. Hume) I always find myself comparing them to St. Thomas. He took ideas that ancient philosophers had been wrestling with for centuries and placed them in a uniquely Christian perspective.
Most importantly, however, I would recommend attending mass as often as possible. I remember what it was like to be a high schooler that didn’t always get a lot out of mass, but over time it became an indespensible part of my life. Go alone if possible, just spend your time with God. You might want to try and talk with a priest in your area, a kind of spiritual director that can answer any questions you have and that you can possibly develop some kind of friendship with.
All of these things are important, studying philosophy and history alone can lead you in the wrong direction, coming to false conclusions. Simply going to Church without any deeper thought may leave you wanting more and not understanding what you are doing. Being a member of Christ’s true Church isn’t easy, but nobody said it would be. You seem like an intelligent person and you need to come to conclusions to yourself, but I promise you that if you combine learning more about your faith with practicing it faithfully you will inevitably come to the conclusion that the Church is the fullest expression of truth and love that we as humans can reach.

God Bless and please stay in touch and don’t hesitate to ask any questions you may have,

Alex

[quote=crono_vivi]Hmm traditions I have questions about.

How about:

Worshipping Mary? Isn’t that Idolatry?

Umm, and the Pope being Infallible? Not sure if I believe that.

And confession, don’t understand why I should confess to another human being, when God should be my only Judge.
[/quote]

Confession is easy…do you have your Bible? Check out John20:21-23.

21…As the father has sent me so I send you 22. Then he breathed on them and said: Recieve the Holy Spirit. 23. If you forgive men’s sins they are forgiven them; If you hold them bound they are held bound.

[quote=crono_vivi]What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Also, you guys, I hope you don’t think this is an attack on Catholicism. I’m just trying to learn, so don’t take a defensive position please. :smiley:
[/quote]

Don’t worry, no one is going to be offended. This is one of the best places to go if you want to learn the truth. Make sure to spend some time reading through some other threads on various topics. You may find answers to questions you didn’t even know you had!

Oh, and please don’t go away if some of us get a little worked up! :slight_smile:

[quote=crono_vivi]Hmm traditions I have questions about.

How about:

Worshipping Mary? Isn’t that Idolatry?

Umm, and the Pope being Infallible? Not sure if I believe that.

And confession, don’t understand why I should confess to another human being, when God should be my only Judge.
[/quote]

crono. I find it puzzling that you claim that there is nothing in the Bible to back up Catholic Tradition. Have you actually read enough of the Bible to be able to ask the question on your own? I doubt it.

You mention things Protestants claim are not in the Bible, like confession, which is so clearly in the Bible that you’d have to be blind, deaf and stupid not to see it. And you speak of honoring our mother (which is a Commandment), Mary, as “worship” and “idolatry.”

In other words, it is clear to me that these questions are not your own. Somebody has been feeding you spiritual arsenic. Well, Catholic Answers is the antidote! Get ready. We’re gonna blow you away with Scriptural backup for the Faith. One question at a time.

Do you own a copy of *The Catechism of the Catholic Church? *Costs about $8. It’s also available and searchable on line at scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

[quote=crono_vivi]What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Also, you guys, I hope you don’t think this is an attack on Catholicism. I’m just trying to learn, so don’t take a defensive position please. :smiley:

EDIT: Also, what’s the difference between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism? Can you give me an unbiased breakdown? Thanks.
[/quote]

The Dead Sea Scrolls contained nothing that people hadn’t seen before. Most of them were simply books of the Bible we have today, others were books that early Church fathers were aware of, but thought flawed in some way.

[quote=crono_vivi]Hmm traditions I have questions about.

How about:

Worshipping Mary? Isn’t that Idolatry?

Umm, and the Pope being Infallible? Not sure if I believe that.

And confession, don’t understand why I should confess to another human being, when God should be my only Judge.
[/quote]

ex cathedra, from the chair of St. Peter, statement on faith and morals, is guarded against error by the Holy Spirit. Most things the Pope says are fallibile, and he usually merely speaks in his private capacity as a scholar. I think there have been about 6 infallible statements, plus I think canonizing saints is infallible (I can assure you, seeing if a saint is in Heaven is a very well done task, the way it is done).

Also, look up the passages-

John 16:13
John 14:26
Luke 10:16
1 Tim 3:15
1 John 2:27
Acts 15:28
Matthew 28:20

For the infallible Church.

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

Tons of stuff on Infallibilty and the Church.

As for confession-

catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

Most of your questions can be answered at www.catholic.com

Hope this helped:D.

PS, stay in the Church. I also thought about the simplicity of “Just follow the Bible!” but religion isn’t that simple. I am glad I have stayed in the Church, and always felt so blessed that I was put into the easiest defendable Church around;).

EDIT-Whoops looks like this has been covered. Browser didn’t decide to load it all I guess.

[quote=Tom]Sorry, I’m a little confused. You’re 16 and you’re looking for a religion that “appealed to me”? Serious reflection over the past 54 years of my life, has led and kept me with the Catholic Church. I looked briefly over the web site, seems like the same old ideas rehashed a thousand times, all have been well debated defeated, and explained. I didn’t see anything new or appealing. If you are serious about finding the truth, please research the Catholic Church and its’ teachings.
[/quote]

I am nearly 70 years old and have studied my Faith over the years, not only from grades, high school and university, but ever since as well. I 100 percent agree with Tom. This guy on the website insists on using the Hebrew names for God, Jesus, etc, but everything else is in English, Spanish etc. If his arguement was valid he should stick consistently with the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Bunch of **** my son. Don’t eat some elses ****. The Catholic Church has not existed for nearly two mellinia in the face of such old tripe because it was a human institution, but because it is truly the Church founded by Jesus, the Son of the Father and as Jesus promised the Holy Spirit is with us… :thumbsup:

crono_vivi,

You wrote: “Worshipping Mary? Isn’t that Idolatry?”

Catholics don’t “worship” Mary. The Church makes a precise distinction, in fact, by using Latin words (whose meanings do NOT change, unlike English—for example, judges used to be addressed as “Your Worship”, but no one thought that they were being worshipped as God). The word for the adoration and worship due to God alone is called “latria”. Mary (and all the other saints) are creatures, not the Creator. Mary is the highest of the saints and so is acorded “hyper-dulia”, the saints are accorded “dulia”. It’s really very simple.

You wrote: "Umm, and the Pope being Infallible? Not sure if I believe that. "

Then read Matthew 16:19, where Jesus gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven”. Next, look up Isaiah 22:22. If the power to open and shut the gates of heaven, and the power to bind and loose is given, then infallibility is also given, or you have a human being making incredible judgements of heaven and hell without guidance. Since God can inspire the Scriptures, I don’t see why it is such a big deal that He protect his Church ("He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me”–Luke 10:16) from error in matters of faith and morals. Otherwise, all you have is relativism. Go to
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp for more info.

You wrote: “And confession, don’t understand why I should confess to another human being, when God should be my only Judge.”

God is your only judge. As for why you should confess to another human being: because that’s the way Jesus set it up. When He gave the power to forgive or retain sins to His apostles and their successors, it seems logical to conclude that for them to do so they had to hear what the sins were. Go to catholic.com and look up the section on the sacraments for more information.

I don’t know if you realize that none of this is new: Protestants have been making these arguments for years and they’ve been answered already. Look at the Early Church and read the Early Church Fathers: you’ll find that the Early Church was doing all of the things you now have a problem with. So, your ideas are contrary to what the first Christians (those who knew the apostles) believed.

[quote=MooCowSteph]Don’t worry, no one is going to be offended. This is one of the best places to go if you want to learn the truth. Make sure to spend some time reading through some other threads on various topics. You may find answers to questions you didn’t even know you had!

Oh, and please don’t go away if some of us get a little worked up! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I second Steph! Everyone questions what their parents taught them at one time or another…it is a sign of intelligence. Look through this site. There are really good resources!

Most of all I just want to give you a hug!! a lot of Kids your age don’t even think about such stuff…at least your thinking!

:blessyou:

Below is a response I posted on the Scriptural basis for confession to another thread. You can look up the Bible verses for yourself.

Only God forgives sins. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Priest acts as his agent – and acts on instructions as noted in John 20:20-23. By using the words, “I absolve you” he accepts responsibility for the commission Christ has given him through that God-breathed ministry which has been passed down through Christ’s Church for two thousand years.

Confession is the Christ-given means of approaching the mystery of redemption in a vital relationship with Christ himself. Catholics see in John 20:20-23 the necessity of a confession. How can the apostles know what to bind and loose if the sins are not confessed? Moreover, confession is clearly a practice of the apostolic and subapostolic Church as attested to by the Early Church Fathers. We also understand the admonition in James 5:16 as a reference to confession. The Church later limits confession to priests, rather than to one another or publicly before the entire congregation, for discretion’s sake. Indeed, why, in the ordinary way of things, would we confess to someone who has no charism to pronounce absolution?

Since the apostles healed the sick, raised the dead, and drove out demons, it is not a stretch that they should have been given the commission to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. Forgiveness and reconciliation to eternal life are the chief message of the Gospel. Effective participation in that mystery would seem requisite to the complete apostolic mission.

Jesus says in this passage from John “As the Father sent me, I also send you.” We see Jesus frequently directly forgiving sin. Thus, the Apostles (which means, ‘those sent’) go and do likewise. The Greek word “forgive” is active, denoting a positive effect, so this passage is not a mere declaration of the forgiveness already effected by God.

The clear teaching of the New Testament and of the Church from earliest times has been that confession of sin and confession of faith in Jesus Christ are two sides of the same coin. Almost the first words Peter speaks to Jesus are, “I am a sinful man.” Recognition of one’s sinfulness is the recognition of Who Christ is. Recognizing the particularity of our own sinfulness and receiving our Lord’s remedy for it is an act of faith. In the Creed we say: “I believe in the forgiveness of sins.” By this we mean not just the over-arching concept of forgiveness but the personal, concrete, intimate fact.

The second chapter of II Corinthians provides an instance of Paul energetically and authoritatively pronouncing forgiveness of the incestuous man: “if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ.” (KJV) This phrase, “forgave I it in the person of Christ” strongly affirms the Catholic interpretation of John 20:23. Later, in Chapter 5, Paul writes: “God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (RSV) Lest one dismiss this as merely a warrant for passing along the teaching, Paul then adds: “We are ambassadors for Christ.” An ambassador is one who acts under authority in the name of the king.

When a Priest pronounces absolution, he does it as Paul did: “In the person of Christ.”

I went to Confession last Saturday (always the same priest, by appointment); when he places his hand on my head and pronounces the absolution I have a physical sense of Our Lord’s presence in that room. It is the voice of Jesus that speaks the words, “I absolve you.”

[quote=crono_vivi] Also, what’s the difference between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism? Can you give me an unbiased breakdown? Thanks.
[/quote]

I’ll take that one on: There isn’t much difference. There was only one church for more than 1000 years, then the Orthodox and Catholics separated and went their own ways. There have been several attempts at reconciliation, but they haven’t succeeded (yet).

Orthodox have a problem with the Pope having administrative authority over other bishops, with the doctrine of papal infallibility, with changes the Catholics made to the Nicene Creed, and other things, particularly innovations the Catholics have come up with since the Church split into several parts.

If you worshipped at an Orthodox Church, you would see quite a few differences, since they have different languages and customs, but basically the same thing is going on. But we have Catholics who do it exactly the same way the Orthodox do - they are called Eastern Rite Catholics.

[quote=crono_vivi]Hi, I’m 16, and was recently confirmed in April. I have been thinking about leaving the Catholic faith, and this site has really appealed to me. What do you guys think of it?

eliyah.com

Just read through it, I want to know what the Catholic viewpoint on this is.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hi, crono.

Do not talk so easily about casting aside your faith when you lack the maturity to judge it. Give yourself 5 more years or so.

Respecting the site, I have this to say.

I am Catholic, but have some Jewish ancestors. My wife and her family are Jewish. I have many Jewish clients.

Many of these say, “You know your Judaism so well! Why not convert to Judaism?”

My answer is, “If I converted to Judaism again, Judaism as I understand it requires me to convert back to the Catholic faith!”

In a sense, Judaism is one big set of rituals and Scriptures foreshadowing Christ and the Catholic Church established by Christ.

If Christ has come and the Catholic Church is already here, why go back to merely foreshadowing it???

In truth, all good Catholics really are Jews, in the sense that we are Jews in the mutated form desired by God.

[quote=urquhart]I’ll take that one on: There isn’t much difference. There was only one church for more than 1000 years, then the Orthodox and Catholics separated and went their own ways. There have been several attempts at reconciliation, but they haven’t succeeded (yet).

Orthodox have a problem with the Pope having administrative authority over other bishops, with the doctrine of papal infallibility, with changes the Catholics made to the Nicene Creed, and other things, particularly innovations the Catholics have come up with since the Church split into several parts.

If you worshipped at an Orthodox Church, you would see quite a few differences, since they have different languages and customs, but basically the same thing is going on. But we have Catholics who do it exactly the same way the Orthodox do - they are called Eastern Rite Catholics.
[/quote]

What about when they claim they are the “true” Catholics?

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