Help me out here

OK.

So Christ died for our sins. Somehow his death saved us (from what I’m not quite sure). But I don’t get the connection.

How did Christ’s death and resurrection “save us” from whatever we needed saving from? If God wanted us to be saved, why drag Christ into it? Seems to me that with one wave of His mighty hand would take care of the whole problem. Why all the drama?

People do bad things. These things offend God since he made us to know love and to love Him and yet we act with indifference, ingratitute and selfishness. Since God is infinitely good, our offense is infinite and we are unable to rectify it fully ourselves.

You’re right. God could have just willed that we be forgiven. But how much would we value such a forgiveness so easily obtained? So God sent Jesus (who is actually Himself) as an offering to Himself so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to Him. He did this in a physical way so that we could relate to it since we are physical beings. We understand suffering and the love one needs to be willing to suffer for someone else, like a parent for a child. So God, in giving Jesus, shows how much He loves us and hopes that this sign will draw us, of our own free will, to Him.

Gem

In practical relationship building, His pain helps us through our pain.

We have a God who suffered unbearable emotional, psychological and physical pain to establish the second and third Person of the Trinity.

And, upon His death, He was able to show us that He was God through the Resurrection.

God’s perfect justice demands restitution, not to be confused with forgiveness. The sin of Adam and Eve closed forever the gates of heaven to all of mankind. This sin was so big, so bad, so wicked, there was NOTHING any human being could ever do to make up for it, only God Himself could make it right. So, God so loved the world, he sent his only son (who was perfectly willing to do it) to redeem us, make up for the Orginal Sin of our first parents and open the gates of heaven to us after all. By the way, Christ’s passion and death was much more than mere “drama”. It was horrific, cruel ,supernatural suffering that no human being could ever endure.

=Lost_Sheep;7298178]OK.

So Christ died for our sins. Somehow his death saved us (from what I’m not quite sure). But I don’t get the connection.

How did Christ’s death and resurrection “save us” from whatever we needed saving from? If God wanted us to be saved, why drag Christ into it? Seems to me that with one wave of His mighty hand would take care of the whole problem. Why all the drama?

That friend is the non-Catholic version and BIBLICALLY UNTRUE:o

BY CHRIST BIRTH, LIFE, DEATH AND RESURRECTION, CHRIST HAS “REDEEMED US.”

"Redeemed" and “Saved” are NOT synomous terms.
Redemption means that by these acts of Mercy and Love that the gates of heaven; having been blocked from the time of Original Sin; [Adam and Eve] were once again opened and access POSSIBLE, BUT NOT ASSURED.

While Christ IS the means of Salvation [the ONLY means], salvation nevertheles is a process that requiews the RIGHT USE of the Spiritual Gifts granted to us by God; precisely to enable us to cooperate with HIS PLAN fo individual salvation.

These gifts of mind, intellect, FREEWILL and soul are tied togeather and are to be ued to Know. Love and Serve God in this worls so hat we shall find complete hapiness with Him in the next. READ: Isaiah 43 7 to 21 for verification.

See the folowing verses on Redemption:

Rom. 3: 24; 1 Cor. 1:30; Col.1:14 and Heb. 9:12 are but a few.

Space and a different topic do not permit a Salvation dicusssion in this post.:o

IN THE END HUMANITY HAS BUT TWO CHOICES TO MAKE: ARE WE GOING TO SPEND ETERNITY IN HEAVEN OR IN HELL? OUR CHOICE; GOD ONLY AFFIRMS OUR PERSOANL DECISSIONS.

AND YES HEAVEN AND HELL ARE REAL! THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIND, INTELLECT, FREEWILL AND SOUL… ALL SPIRITUAL GIFTS SIMILAR [BUT NOT YET PERFECTED LIKE GOD’S OWN]… BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE GIFTS GOD MORALLY OBLIGATES HIMSELF TO ALLOW US TO USE THEM.:slight_smile:

THE “WHY” IS A DIRECT RESPONCE TO THESE SPIRITUAL GIFTS WHICH GOD MUST ALLOW US TO USE. IT’S A MATTER OF DIVINE JUSTICE, NOT THE UNLIMITED POWER OF GOD TO DO GOOD.

Love and prayers,
Pat

(part 1)

It is all connected with love.

because God is love, so He works only according to love,
and what is love? it is not an emotion or a feeling, but instead an act of the will, it is to will good to another, and is only genuinely love when done without self motive,
and because it is only genuine without self motive, then love cannot be forced onto someone, and cannot be taken from someone, it must be chosen, otherwise it is simply not love,
but love, by its very nature, cannot be contained, love cannot “be” unless it is pored out, because love is completely selfless, so it cannot be kept to ones self,
and so if it cannot be kept to ones self, then God, Who is love, must love, and in order to love, He must create someone to love, which is us, but as love cannot be forced or taken, so God gave us a free will to choose,
but how are we free to choose if there is nothing to choose between?
that is where evil comes in,
but evil, as i have come to learn, is not a “thing” but a lack thereof, it is a lack of God, it is where God is not,
it is the choice between accepting or rejecting God,
so when we choose good, we choose God, because as we are told, “God alone is good”, and when we choose evil, we are choosing to reject God, or to be absent from Him,
between these two things, good and evil, there is no other choice,
but evil, sin, and hell, are all proofs of our freedom, they mean that we have a choice other than God, so that if we do not want to love God, He will not force us.

alright, now onto your question,

“Seems to me that with one wave of His mighty hand would take care of the whole problem. Why all the drama?”

the problem with that is, He would have been forcing such a change on us, the problem was, and is, that we are sinners, and that is what He came to save us from, but only if we choose it, no one is “saved” until they choose to be, and how we choose it is by using the graces God sends us, and by keeping His commandments and living in imitation of Christ(which we likewise do by the grace of God…so prayer is quite necessary)
Jesus came down to live and die for us, so that we “may” be saved, and to open the gates of heaven, which were closed by sin,
but He also came as a example to us, to show us how we must be, and what we must do to be saved,

the reason God did not just “wave His mighty hand” and take care of the whole problem, is because first of all, that would be contrary to our freedom, and His loving nature,
and also, He was greatly offended with us…and rightly so,
God of course owes nothing to us, and quite the contrary, we owe everything to Him, and yet God only thinks of us(never of Himself) and has given so much to us, but we have been so ungrateful to Him, even after He showed His love to us,
that is why Jesus came down, He wanted to show us how He loved us, not just say it, if all He did was say it, we would hardly be impressed, and forget His words in no time.
and likewise, if He did not give every last drop of blood, if He left anything wanting, then He would have left questions, at least in some of our hearts…
but because God loves us with an “everlasting love”, so God could not act otherwise, than to give all.

sure it would be easy to just do it the way you said, but would it have been best for our souls? no…
would it have raised our place in heaven higher? no,
would it have made us love God more? no…
if Adam and Eve, who were quite perfect, fell into sin, then how much more would we, even after God cleans up our mess, just fall right back into the same sin?
it would just keep happening, we are weak and inclined towards sin, and we need God to help us, but not to do all the work,
i’m sure you’ve met children, who’s parents give them everything they want, who do not discipline them, who let them do whatever they want…and they are spoiled brats, right?
well imagine how we would be, we who are so inclined towards sin, if God just did everything for us? we would be ungrateful, soft, spoiled, and no better off(worse really)
it would not be good for us, and would not draw us closer to God,
God wants our love, not our happiness, but with love comes happiness, and so we must seek love first, and those good things will follow,
as we are told, do not seek God for joy, but seek God, who gives joy, do not seek God for consolations, but seek God, who consoles…seek God for His own sake, and you will not be wanting in anything, but will be filled completely, and satisfied completely, so that you will desire nothing but God, because you will have found what you were looking for all along.

if God did everything for us and there were no effort on our part, then likewise we could not show our love to God, and that is very important as well,
in order to get into heaven, we must love God, because heaven is the place we go to love God forever,
and God will not force you into heaven, if He forced someone into heaven that did not love Him and did not want to love Him, then it would be a hell for him…
but aside from that, the reason it is important for us to show our love for God and grow in love for Him, is because by that we can grow in holiness and sanctity, and return to the perfection we were meant to have,

(part 2)

So Christ died for our sins. Somehow his death saved us (from what I’m not quite sure). But I don’t get the connection.

How did Christ’s death and resurrection “save us” from whatever we needed saving from?

It is not so much that Christs death “saved” us, but instead His death was the cause of all salvation, whereas the sin of the first man was the cause of all condemnation,
and although Christ by His death acquired merit sufficient for the whole human race, there are still special things needed for the particular salvation of each individual,

by sin, we were made enemies with God, we lost sanctifying grace, and could not enter into heaven,
and because sin separates us from God and makes us His enemy, so we could hardly hope to obtain pardon for all of our sins and pay the debt of sin on our own…
instead, God, out of His love and mercy, sent down His only son, to make satisfaction for our sins,
and as we are told by Saint Thomas Aquinas, *"the passion of Christ is the proper cause of the remission of our sins, and that in three ways,

  1. Because it provokes us to love God, St. Paul says, God commandeth His charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. v. 8).
    Through charity we obtain forgiveness for sin, as it says in the gospel, Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much (Luke. vii. 47).

  2. the passion of Christ is the cause of the forgiveness of sins because it is an act of redemption. Since Christ is Himself our head, He has, by His own Passion - undertaken from love and obedience - delivered us His members from our own sins, as it were at the price of His Passion…

  3. The Passion of Christ was a thing equal to its task. For the human nature through which Christ suffered his Passion is the instrument of His Divine nature. Whence all the actions and all the sufferings of that human nature wrought to drive our sin, are wrought out by a power that is divine."*

but what is there to be saved from? from sin, slavery to the devil, hell…it is not that Christ has saved us, but that by His loving act, we can be saved,
but God would not go further than that, because to go so far as to take away sin, or take away hell, would likewise take away our freedom, as i mentioned before,
so instead, God did the most He could without taking away our freedom, which was to give us the means to be saved, which we find in the imitating of the life of Christ(in His virtues), by the Holy Eucharist, which is the food of our souls by which we have true life in us, by the sacrament of confession, by which we seek Gods forgiveness in humility and obedience, the Church and the bible, by which we learn the laws of God and His truth,
by prayer, as a means to seek God, raise our hearts and minds to Him, know Him and love Him more, and increase in virtue…etc.
God has given us the means to get to heaven, there is nothing stopping us, He has told us how, and all it takes is our willingness to do it.

well, i could go on, by i think Gem gave a wonderful explanation on why God did things the way He did, and so i really don’t have much more to add.

but before i go, i think this would be the perfect book for you to understand what you are asking - amazon.com/Meditations-Lent-St-Thomas-Aquinas/dp/1408686570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290554632&sr=8-1-spell
i would highly recommend reading that to understand Gods reason and wisdom behind the way He has ordained these things…although anything from St. Thomas Aquinas on this subject would help, but i think that book in particular was very easy to understand.

alright, so i hope this helps, take care.

=EmeraldWings;7299486](part 1)

It is all connected with love.

because God is love, so He works only according to love,
and what is love? it is not an emotion or a feeling, but instead an act of the will, it is to will good to another, and is only genuinely love when done without self motive,
and because it is only genuine without self motive, then love cannot be forced onto someone, and cannot be taken from someone, it must be chosen, otherwise it is simply not love,
but love, by its very nature, cannot be contained, love cannot “be” unless it is pored out, because love is completely selfless, so it cannot be kept to ones self,
and so if it cannot be kept to ones self, then God, Who is love, must love, and in order to love, He must create someone to love, which is us, but as love cannot be forced or taken, so God gave us a free will to choose,
but how are we free to choose if there is nothing to choose between?
that is where evil comes in,
but evil, as i have come to learn, is not a “thing” but a lack thereof, it is a lack of God, it is where God is not,
it is the choice between accepting or rejecting God,
so when we choose good, we choose God, because as we are told, “God alone is good”, and when we choose evil, we are choosing to reject God, or to be absent from Him,
between these two things, good and evil, there is no other choice,
but evil, sin, and hell, are all proofs of our freedom, they mean that we have a choice other than God, so that if we do not want to love God, He will not force us.

alright, now onto your question,

the problem with that is, He would have been forcing such a change on us, the problem was, and is, that we are sinners, and that is what He came to save us from, but only if we choose it, no one is “saved” until they choose to be, and how we choose it is by using the graces God sends us, and by keeping His commandments and living in imitation of Christ(which we likewise do by the grace of God…so prayer is quite necessary)
Jesus came down to live and die for us, so that we “may” be saved, and to open the gates of heaven, which were closed by sin,
but He also came as a example to us, to show us how we must be, and what we must do to be saved,

the reason God did not just “wave His mighty hand” and take care of the whole problem, is because first of all, that would be contrary to our freedom, and His loving nature,
and also, He was greatly offended with us…and rightly so,
God of course owes nothing to us, and quite the contrary, we owe everything to Him, and yet God only thinks of us(never of Himself) and has given so much to us, but we have been so ungrateful to Him, even after He showed His love to us,
that is why Jesus came down, He wanted to show us how He loved us, not just say it, if all He did was say it, we would hardly be impressed, and forget His words in no time.
and likewise, if He did not give every last drop of blood, if He left anything wanting, then He would have left questions, at least in some of our hearts…
but because God loves us with an “everlasting love”, so God could not act otherwise, than to give all.

sure it would be easy to just do it the way you said, but would it have been best for our souls? no…
would it have raised our place in heaven higher? no,
would it have made us love God more? no…
if Adam and Eve, who were quite perfect, fell into sin, then how much more would we, even after God cleans up our mess, just fall right back into the same sin?
it would just keep happening, we are weak and inclined towards sin, and we need God to help us, but not to do all the work,
i’m sure you’ve met children, who’s parents give them everything they want, who do not discipline them, who let them do whatever they want…and they are spoiled brats, right?
well imagine how we would be, we who are so inclined towards sin, if God just did everything for us? we would be ungrateful, soft, spoiled, and no better off(worse really)
it would not be good for us, and would not draw us closer to God,
God wants our love, not our happiness, but with love comes happiness, and so we must seek love first, and those good things will follow,
as we are told, do not seek God for joy, but seek God, who gives joy, do not seek God for consolations, but seek God, who consoles…seek God for His own sake, and you will not be wanting in anything, but will be filled completely, and satisfied completely, so that you will desire nothing but God, because you will have found what you were looking for all along.

if God did everything for us and there were no effort on our part, then likewise we could not show our love to God, and that is very important as well,
in order to get into heaven, we must love God, because heaven is the place we go to love God forever,
and God will not force you into heaven, if He forced someone into heaven that did not love Him and did not want to love Him, then it would be a hell for him…
but aside from that, the reason it is important for us to show our love for God and grow in love for Him, is because by that we can grow in holiness and sanctity, and return to the perfection we were meant to have,

Very well done dear friend:thumbsup:

According to Scripture God opposes the proud and exalts the humble. Pride separates us from God. By the Incarnation God lowered Himself, not thinking it beneath Him to do so. And much more humiliation was to follow in the Passion and Crucifixion. By this act, God condemned the pride and arrogance that kills the soul and damns us-and is the cause of all sin in this world. And when we look upon the perfect innocence that humankind tortured and killed, we have the opportunity to be convicted of this sin of pride and to turn and follow Him instead in this same path of love and humility. We have the choice between life and death. This is the means God deemed appropriate to save us-to reveal His own love and will and nature in no uncertain terms-the way He chose to offer His grace-without forcing it upon us.

Good post, I was thinking the same thing when it comes to salvation & redemption. Also, God required blood sacrifices of animals for sins in the Old Testament, which were never suffuicient for the redemption of sin. Christ was the perfect sacrifice for our sin; past, present, and future, for He transcends time. He was the the one & only true spotless, and without blemish sacrifice. This is why Christ is called the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You mean reversal of whole body necrotic cell death three days post mortem seems a bit too dramatic for your tastes?
Well, you may have a teensy point there.

=andyandely1997;7301905]Good post, I was thinking the same thing when it comes to salvation & redemption. Also, God required blood sacrifices of animals for sins in the Old Testament, which were never suffuicient for the redemption of sin. Christ was the perfect sacrifice for our sin; past, present, and future, for He transcends time. He was the the one & only true spotless, and without blemish sacrifice. This is why Christ is called the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Great added insight! Thanks,
Pat

Thank you, everyone, but I still need to do a lot more thinking on this subject.

That’s fine, that is what you really should be doing, think about it, or “meditate” on it, that is what we all as Catholics are supposed to do, that is how God reveals Himself to us and teaches us to know and understand His truths,

it’s fine that there are things like this that you don’t understand, but just be patient when looking for the answers, because your goal should not simply be to gain knowledge, but instead to come closer to God, let Gods love be your goal, and these things won’t bother you so much…it’s important to seek God for His own sake and not for any other motive, because you’re trying to be His friend, and to have secret motives(not secret to Him of course) is simply not what a good friend would do,
just remember that God loves you, He wants to be your friend, but He is also your Father, and so you must trust Him in how He takes care of you, He knows what’s best for your soul and how you will grow in sanctity and holiness.

i think these books will help you alot, not in understanding your question, but in something else -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18175319
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275

alright, i will keep you in my prayers, take care.

I was told by a pastor that one of the other reasons Christ died on the cross was to show man-kind that he loves us so much that he wanted to suffer with us. Is there any validity to this?

I also have issues with the redemption through crucifixion method. It was previously stated that god couldn’t wave his hand and save us because it would have been a violation of our free will, but if this is the only concern, god could have simply found a way to forgive man without dying. However, he did so this had to have been necessary.

I have an issue with free will. How much free will do we actually possess? We came into this world against our will, and we have to endure it against our will.

We have the freedom to choose right over wrong, good over evil, life over death-to choose to turn to God or not. It’s a* given* that existence is good-God determined that it’s better for each of us to exist than not to exist, whether or not we agree at any one point in time.

When you get right down to it, our free will just has to do with either choosing God or not,
but more specifically to your question, our free will is more in how we choose to handle any given situation, object, thought, etc. and not in the things themselves, but how we react to them,
for example, someone may try to force you to say you don’t believe in God by holding a gun to your head, but it is entirely up to you what you choose to say, no one can really force you to say anything,
likewise, God cannot force you to love Him, to pray, go to mass, or do any of the other things asked and commanded of us, you are free to choose,
of course, that does not mean you are free to enter heaven if you reject God, because while we have the free will to choose for ourselves, we cannot force ourselves into Gods kingdom, because God is free as well, and we cannot force Him to do anything,
we choose for ourselves, not others,
and the most important use of our free will is choosing between sinning or not sinning, because no matter what, no one can force you to sin, it is impossible for you to sin against your will, because otherwise, the sin is simply not on your soul,
someone may use their free will to use force on you, and that is unfortunate for them, but as for you, you can even use that, of your own free will, to do something good, like offering it up, or enduring it patiently, or use it as an opportunity to speak to them about Gods love…or whatever else,
everything that happens in life is an opportunity to grow in love for God and to grow in holiness, and we are completely free to use those things in life that way…

even if you are forced into slavery, you are still free to choose how you handle that, for example, offering it all up to God as reparation for your sins,

and the thing about what you said here - “We came into this world against our will, and we have to endure it against our will”
actually you don’t have to endure it against your will, you will save yourself alot of misery if you instead accept it, you can go through life willing to endure whatever life throws at you, and you will be much happier because of it,

really, the secret to peace and happiness is to do what God has told you,
and we know that because we have the saints to prove it to us,
God loves us and has told us and warned us over and over on what we must do to get to heaven, and has gone even further by sending messengers such as His Blessed Mother to us to warn us more,
so there is really no one to blame but ourselves, it’s like when a mother tells her child not to jump on the bed or they’ll fall off, but the child does it anyways despite the mothers warning, and so the child ends up falling off the bed and hurting himself, so who’s at fault? obviously the child.
that is how we are, we have been warned more than enough, and although it’s more convenient to blame God for all our problems, it’s just not true, and really doesn’t help matters,
does the world get better when we blame God? nope, and it seems that those who blame God the most are the ones who aren’t doing anything to help the world or themselves very much at all,

i think the world would be alot better off if people started worrying about what they need to do instead of why they need to do it…we don’t need to know all of life’s mysteries in order to be good and make it to heaven, and it seems very often that is where the devil gets us, he tricks us into thinking we need to understand something before doing it or accepting it, but what we have to realize is, in the process of doing or accepting something, you will know more about it then than you would have even if you spent years just thinking about it…

well, i think i got kinda off subject, so that’s all, i hope this explains it a little better,
ok, take care.

For all practical purposes, we have no free will. God may have given us a free will, but we better not exercise it or else we will suffer the consequences. It’s either God’s way or the Highway (to Hell).

You’ve got it all wrong Lost_sheep, God doesn’t just tell us what to do and how to do everything just because He has the power to do so, He tells us everything we need to do to be happy, everything He says and everything He does is for love of us, He has put everything, all He is, all His attention, into helping us, so we can be happy, He wants our love and happiness,
He never thinks of things as “His way or the highway”, He doesn’t think of Himself at all, only of us, if we choose to do things our way, we are free to do so, but we are naturally inclined towards sin, and so it’s no wonder that when we do things our way that we are miserable…

we get angry and upset only because things don’t go our way, or because God isn’t fixing the world in one fail swoop, but honestly, how long have you or I been alive, how much knowledge and wisdom do we have, to beable to say we know better than God? and if you can admit to yourself that indeed God knows better, then the only thing left to do is listen to Him,
He loves you so much, and there is nothing stopping you from having peace and making it to heaven except yourself,
our worst enemy in life is no one but ourselves, and if you can overcome that one obstacle, then nothing will stand in your way, no feeling, no temptation, no person, not even the devil, you will be free,

if you want to know how truly freeing it is to do good, and how absolutely enslaving evil is, then just try resisting your sins, try resisting your temptations,
it is sin that enslaves us, you may think that freedom lies in being able to do whatever you want, but true freedom really lies in doing good,
because sin is something you do whether you want to or not(unless you are that holy), but being good is something you do only if you want to! so which one is more freeing?
you are enslaved by your feelings, not by God! God offers you heaven, He offers you eternal happiness, what is wrong with that? sure we have to endure this life, which at times seems so hard, but it is a mere sliver in our existence, it’s nothing.
the devil wishes to enslave us and drag us into hell, God wants to save us and bring us to heaven,
and think about this, we do not deserve heaven, God owes us nothing, but we do deserve hell…why does God offer us heaven when we do not deserve it in the least? it is because He loves us…as wretched as we are, He wants nothing more than to love us and make us happy forever…who do you know that loves you that much? who is so selfless, that no matter how you hurt them, they forgive you and invite you into their home.
what did Jesus say to St. Peter when he said to Him “Depart from me, O Lord, for I am a sinful man,”…He said “Fear not.”…
and St. Thomas of Villanova tells us “What do you fear?, this Judge whose condemnation you dread is the same Jesus Christ who died upon the Cross in order not to condemn you.”

why do we fear? why do we resist Gods love? He offers it to us freely, and we reject it for lesser things,

you have alot to hope for, because God is so merciful, His mercy is far greater than all the sins of the world,
what are we told - “He who hopes for nothing will obtain nothing; He who hopes for little will obtain little; he who hopes for all things will obtain all things.”
set your hopes high, reach for great things, and put all you trust in Gods strength, consider yourself little(as we really are) and depend entirely on God, and then you will obtain great holiness and sanctity and you will have peace,

God is not to be feared, although we are to have the “fear of the Lord” but that is a fear of displeasing Him, and not a distressing emotion,
God is someone we run to for help and safety, He is there as a father and friend, all He wants is our love…but what spoils it is, we want it the way we want it, we don’t want it Gods way, we want love according to our own designs…but when will we see that the world has been running according to man for to long already, and what state is it in?
you say “God may have given us a free will, but we better not exercise it or else we will suffer the consequences. It’s either God’s way or the Highway” but when have we tried it Gods way?!
well, yes there was a short period of time when the majority of the world did things Gods way, it was a time of peace described as “angels walking the earth”…there is peace when we do things Gods way…but are you? is the world?
well, even if the world isn’t, you still can, and you can have peace just the same…and nothing is stopping you,
why do we take Gods love and help for us as some kind of punishment? as if we know love? we were created, and we must learn to love…but we know nothing of love, we only pretend to know, because to know love is to know God…and who knows God? we criticize Him and blaspheme Him because we are ignorant of Him, but to know Him is to love Him, and to know love is to know God…and we just don’t.

well, as i said in my last post, just pray on it, think about it, there’s no need to get ahead of yourself, and i will pray for you to, you have alot to hope for.

ok, hope this helps, take care.

My reasoning tells me God will probably be fairly liberal about who is saved and who isn’t. I believe this because I can’t see Him sending someone to hell for living in accordance with their conscience, even if their conscience never led them to Rome.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.