Help me respond


#1

…to this statement:

So the Catholic church is “okay” with gay people as long as they know their place and don’t try to do things that the “normal folk” do? **


#2

The Church teaches that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman so 2 men or 2 women are unable to get married. The Church also teaches that sex is reserved for the state of marriage. Since homosexuals cannot get married they are called to live a life of chastity according to station in life as a single person. The same applies to any heterosexuals who are unmarried as well.


#3

Here's what the catechism says about homosexuality:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

So, homosexual action and behavior is not acceptable and is a sin. Having a homosexual orientation, however, is tolerated AS LONG AS one resists it and does not have any type of homosexual relationship; homosexual orientation is tolerated but should be eliminated. That means homosexuals should strive to "master themselves" by fighting homosexual attraction etc., just as a heterosexual person would avoid giving in to heterosexual attraction if he decides not to marry, or if he marries and aims to be faithful to his spouse. Even if one planned to marry as a heterosexual, one would want to be self-controlled and avoid letting attraction overcome his mind. Since homosexual marriage is impossible (since God would never join two homosexuals), it is never appropriate for a homosexual to passively tolerate his attraction for the same sex.


#4

Thank you both.

But my response needs to be aimed at a non-Catholic liberal who (as you can imagine) is pro-gay marriage.

These answers are great to respond to another Catholic; I need something that will hit home with this person.

Please understand, my response is more about defending the Church's position without sounding like hate speech (or what they consider Hate Speech).

I hope I'm making sense. :shrug:


#5

Logical fallacies should not be argued at all. Do not take this bait.


#6

You’re making sense, I approach it the same way I do abortion. You have to be kind in the way you explain things. Today a lot of people no longer know right from wrong, and I feel it’s my place to gently point them in the right direction. If you give a practicing homosexual the responses you received, they will immediately shut you down as an extremist. I would just start out by saying “this is what I believe”, or something along those lines. I always tell people the truth, and if they can’t handle it then it’s on them. I hope this helps.


#7

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:4, topic:329175"]
Thank you both.

But my response needs to be aimed at a non-Catholic liberal who (as you can imagine) is pro-gay marriage.

These answers are great to respond to another Catholic; I need something that will hit home with this person.

Please understand, my response is more about defending the Church's position without sounding like hate speech (or what they consider Hate Speech).

I hope I'm making sense. :shrug:

[/quote]

So the Catholic church is "okay" with gay people as long as they know their place and don't try to do things that the "normal folk" do? * *

I don't understand why everyone wants to respond. The best thing to do is continually ask questions.

First ask, tell me your understanding of what the Catholic Church is. Keep asking questions until you have the ability to understand what it is they think it is and then you can say...

Let me explain my understanding of the Catholic Church

Next, when you say "gay" people, what do you mean by that. Here you may find an understanding of beliefs that would include

Essentialism=born that way=God created them gay, etc....if you hear anything that sounds like anger towards people being who they are, then you know that you are dealing with someone that has swallowed the fallacy of Essentialism. There is not now or ever been proof for this....

You can respond, you just don't accept that people are born, created or come into the world believing that they are "gay"...if the person persists, ask for the proof. More likely than not they resort to "left hand" arguments or epigenetics..take notes and then do some research....none of this proves Essentialism.

Ask, what do you mean when you say "know their place"....here you will get at all the anger that this person has and will vent...take no position, just keep gathering information...

Ask, what do you mean by normal.....and here you will get their understanding of what they believe you and every other Catholic believes....just keep asking questions.

Ask, what is your understanding of marriage...

When you have gathered all your information you should have an understanding of what it is they believe, what their beef is, and what they expect....

Then you can respond with what you believe and why....


#8

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:1, topic:329175"]
...to this statement:

So the Catholic church is "okay" with gay people as long as they know their place and don't try to do things that the "normal folk" do? **

The Catholic Church is more than "okay" with gay people, since she loves all people. But not all people are in a position to do certain things that others can do. A man "should know his place and not try to do things" that are for women (e.g take estrogen). Maybe a fail of an analogy, but I tried. :D

Anyway, maybe you could ask that if being against gay "marriage" is discriminatory (which most people who support it would agree with), then what happens for those with a moral or religious objection? Would they in turn be "intolerant" of religion and restrict religious freedom?

[/quote]


#9

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:1, topic:329175"]
...to this statement:

So the Catholic church is "okay" with gay people as long as they know their place and don't try to do things that the "normal folk" do? **
I would try this:

The Catholic Church loves those with same-sex attraction, recognizes that they are victim souls who have a different (and heavy) cross to carry and urges them to seek a life that is devoted to God in a way that is different from heterosexuals.

In other words, the Church doesn't tell those with same-sex attraction to do what "normal folk do" because the Church recognizes that SSA individuals are different and have different struggles. Society, on other hand, lies to those with same-sex attraction by telling them that if they behave unnaturally then they can be just as happy as those who are married and who can participate in the marital embrace. Society blinds itself to the differences between a sexual act that is closed to the possibility of life and a sexual act that is open to the possibility of life and gives very damaging advice to those with SSA as a result.

[/quote]


#10

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:4, topic:329175"]
Thank you both.

But my response needs to be aimed at a non-Catholic liberal who (as you can imagine) is pro-gay marriage.

These answers are great to respond to another Catholic; I need something that will hit home with this person.

Please understand, my response is more about defending the Church's position without sounding like hate speech (or what they consider Hate Speech).

I hope I'm making sense. :shrug:

[/quote]

O.k. how about God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

Or how about common sense. Our sexual organs are designed for sex between a man and a woman. They are not designed to enter something that is supposed to be an exit.

You do not have to be a religious person to see that homosexual sex is illogical. If someone refuses to listen to common sense don't waist your time.


#11

[quote="edarlitrix, post:3, topic:329175"]
Here's what the catechism says about homosexuality:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

So, homosexual action and behavior is not acceptable and is a sin. Having a homosexual orientation, however, is tolerated AS LONG AS one resists it and does not have any type of homosexual relationship; homosexual orientation is tolerated but should be eliminated. That means homosexuals should strive to "master themselves" by fighting homosexual attraction etc., just as a heterosexual person would avoid giving in to heterosexual attraction if he decides not to marry, or if he marries and aims to be faithful to his spouse. Even if one planned to marry as a heterosexual, one would want to be self-controlled and avoid letting attraction overcome his mind. Since homosexual marriage is impossible (since God would never join two homosexuals), it is never appropriate for a homosexual to passively tolerate his attraction for the same sex.

[/quote]

Amen. Way to bring out the CCC.


#12

Thanks. This is what I was looking for.


#13

I have an idea too. Somebody I work with uses this on me a lot. You basically ask questions so that the other person comes up with what you are trying to tell them, rather than arguing with them you sort of lead them to the point you’re trying to make.

So:

YOU: Let me ask you this - what do you call 2 women in a sexual relationship?

Non-Catholic Liberal Person: Huh?

YOU: What do you all 2 women who are, ya know, “partners”

NCLP: Lesbians?

YOU: Yeah. So a Lesbian partnership is 2 women. Wouldn’t that be right ?

NCLP: Yeah. What’s yer point?

YOU: Well, stay with me here. If you saw 2 men kissing passionately, would you call them Lesbians?

NCLP: Well … maybe if they were drag queens.

YOU: haha well but I mean they are both men, dressed as men. Would they be Lesbians.

NCLP: No, by definition they would not be Lesbians I guess…

… and then you can say how the Church defines marriage as male-female, by definition it’s sort of gender-dependent. A man can’t “marry” another man, just like a man can’t “Lesbian” another man. May sound kind of simplistic but I think the basic point Liberals can’t seem to get into their heads is this basic idea.


#14

Here is the response I got to the Adam and Steve argument.

“I don’t hate Catholics at all. I do hate hypocrisy and bigotry. Adam & Steve is just another BS sound byte, catch phrase, etc. And your entry/exit theory is bogus as well because the vagina IS designed for exit. I don’t understand why you are so hung up on men having sex with men. What’s your argument against women having sex with women? Same sex marriages are based on love and companionship, not just sex. Was YOUR marriage based solely on sex? If so, then that’s tragic.”


#15

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:14, topic:329175"]
Here is the response I got to the Adam and Steve argument.

"I don't hate Catholics at all. I do hate hypocrisy and bigotry. Adam & Steve is just another BS sound byte, catch phrase, etc. And your entry/exit theory is bogus as well because the vagina IS designed for exit. I don't understand why you are so hung up on men having sex with men. What's your argument against women having sex with women? Same sex marriages are based on love and companionship, not just sex. Was YOUR marriage based solely on sex? If so, then that's tragic."

[/quote]

O.K. you agree with me that sex was designed for a man and a woman. Right? After all it is the only way to naturally have a child. You agree that homosexual sex, whether between 2 men or 2 women, will not produce anything. Correct?

Now I know what you are going to say. " What about heterosexual people who are not able to concieve? they shouldn't have sex?"

My point is this. If we believe there is a God that created everything including sex, and since sex is meant for reproduction, and only heterosexual sex CAN reproduce, and since the overwhelming majority of people have Heterosexual attraction not homosexual attraction then Heterosexual sex would be considered normal. Homosexual sex would therefore be considered not normal, or abnormal behavior.

This was not challenged until about 30 or 40 years ago. In fact homosexual sex was sooo uncommon that it wasn't even discussed. today it is in our face. It is not us that are

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:14, topic:329175"]
so hung up on men having sex with men.

[/quote]

it is the culture and people like the one you are quoting.

Did you know that up until the 1990's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder? It was removed from the list due to political pressure, not because of any new findings.

It is the militant pro-gay culture that is obsessed with homosexual sex, and who are the bigots and the hipocites who will not tolerate a veiw opposing their's. Even though theirs is against nature and what wwas considered normal behavior for milliniums

Also, again, if they will not listen to reason walk away. This person is obviously full of hurt and anger. And knows they are wrong. That's way they have to resort to name calling to defend their position.


#16

Well, you tried. Be encouraged that your friend is the one who is hung up on sex. There is nothing more obvious than the fact that sex is supposed to be between male and female. So if they can’t see that, they are just not in a place where they can see clearly.

Maybe 1ke was right - but I applaud you for trying.


#17

[quote="Lost_Sheep, post:14, topic:329175"]
Here is the response I got to the Adam and Steve argument.

"I don't hate Catholics at all. I do hate hypocrisy and bigotry. Adam & Steve is just another BS sound byte, catch phrase, etc. And your entry/exit theory is bogus as well because the vagina IS designed for exit. I don't understand why you are so hung up on men having sex with men. What's your argument against women having sex with women? **Same sex marriages are based on love **and companionship, not just sex. Was YOUR marriage based solely on sex? If so, then that's tragic."

[/quote]

Wouldn't they love each other enough not to sin with each other?

Either way, their support still ends up having them discriminate against Catholics. Or at least religious people in general.

Now who's the "bigot"?


#18

The problem is, they don’t see themselves as sinning. The hard part is convincing people that they are.


#19

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