Help me understand?


#1

Why does the Church allow so-called Catholic institutions to remain open when they are clearly NOT Catholic? Take for example hospitals that do not want to recognize the teachings of the Church, or universities that refuse to teach true Catholic doctrine?

Honestly, help me on this, because I do not understand why the Church does close the lot of them.


#2

[quote=TPJCatholic]Why does the Church allow so-called Catholic institutions to remain open when they are clearly NOT Catholic? Take for example hospitals that do not want to recognize the teachings of the Church, or universities that refuse to teach true Catholic doctrine?

Honestly, help me on this, because I do not understand why the Church does close the lot of them.
[/quote]

TPJ, If the Church really put down the gauntlet, and they were consistent, they would also have to close more than half of the parishes in the United States, too, don’t you think??

The problem we have is with the courts. That and a generation of horrible Catechesis. Oh yeah, then there is that reliance on taxpayer funding, too…


#3

jlw,

Yes, I think they should do it anyway–be not afraid!


#4

Not only that, but I firmly believe Catholic Community Servces should shut down operations in Califoirnia after the California courts forced them to cover contraception in their employee insurance packages.
Yes, I know thousands would lose their jobs and thousdands more would be without the desperately needed services if CCS left, but I also don’t think it would last long. No other entity, not even the state, could fill the void caused if CCS closed up shop.
A solution satisfactoiry to CCS and Church teaching would be found, pronto.
It’s time to face them down, .44’s at 20 paces in the middle of Main Street. We will win, they have no other choice.


#5

strider,

Good points–but why doesn’t the Church take action?


#6

[quote=TPJCatholic]Good points–but why doesn’t the Church take action?
[/quote]

The church has engaged on this matter several times: they put out the mandatum by which all professors teaching theology at Catholic colleges were supposed to be obliged to sign certifying that they were teaching according to the magesterium. People like McCormick and McBrien not only refused to sign it, they and few other institutions of higher learning, will not tell parents which of their professors have done so - a law passed but not implemented goes into the circular file.

Shortly after coming to St. Louis Rigali tangled hard with the Jesuits who had turned over management of their “Catholic” college to laypersons with only one priest on the board and I gathered from my reading, you couldn’t tell the difference apparently between him and the rest of them. This went to court under who owns institutions and facilities called “Catholic”.

The fate of Fr. Fessio speaks volumes - after a battle, he ended up being forced off the SF college campus, and was banished to being chaplain to nuns for a long while, until a Catholic layman donated enough for Ave Maria college. It is strongly suspected that his Father Provincial has “silenced” him as he cannot speak publicly about his situation which isn’t very good at the moment. This was a high profile, fantastic publisher and spokesperson loyal to the Church and the pope, he is the Sheen of the hard print Catholic world.

Others got the message - IMHO there are various reasons for this, one could perhaps think of the current state of the Jesuits themselves - one could wonder about the nuncios provided to the US which have perhaps left the impression they might be those seeking a red hat and large financial remunerations from the post and then one could contemplate the workings of NCCB leadership.

The conclusions would of course be one’s own.


#7

Hagia,

So, what happened with the fight to determine “who” owns those institutions?


#8

[quote=TPJCatholic]Why does the Church allow so-called Catholic institutions to remain open when they are clearly NOT Catholic?
[/quote]

Usually because it is not clear that they are not Catholic outside the often false accusations of a reactionary clique. In some cases, the Church has determined they are Catholic, it is just that certain extremists don’t approve of the church’s judgement.


#9

Let me suggest that without specific examples (that is, naming names), that this thread will not bear much fruit beyond useless generalized accusations of Church dereliction or vast reactionary conspiracies. Let’s keep it real.

Scott


#10

The reason the Church doesn’t shut down some of these organizations is that the Church has no legal authority to do so. They don’t own them.

The organizations are private, non-profit institutions with their own legal standing.


#11

exactly otm. Catholic universities and hospitals are almost exclusively run by religious orders that function fairly autonomously. The University of Notre Dame, for example, is run by the Holy Cross order of priests, but also controlled by a lay board of trustees. These are the legal “owners” of the University. The bishop of Ft Wayne-South Bend or even the Pope couldn’t “shut down” Notre Dame because they have no control over the capital, property, human resources, etc that make up the university. I suppose the Pope or bishop could ask ND to stop calling itself “catholic” if he felt ND was no longer Catholic, or publicly state the university isn’t affiliated with the Church. But that’s about all he could do, short of dissolving the entire Holy Cross order.


#12

[quote=otm]The reason the Church doesn’t shut down some of these organizations is that the Church has no legal authority to do so. They don’t own them.

The organizations are private, non-profit institutions with their own legal standing.
[/quote]

AND FOLKS THAT IS THE BEST ANSWER YET, IF YOU DON’T OWN IT YOU DON’T CONTROL IT THE “CHURCH” ISN’T IN THE OWNER SHIP BUSINESS-AND THERE IS NO “CHURCH” AS MANY PEOPLE THINK OF IT, THAT IS TO SAY A LARGE CATHOLIC CORPORATION THAT OWNS AND CONTROLS EVERYTHING “CATHOLIC”


#13

Is there not some way that the Catholic Church can at least remove it’s name and support from those institutions? People should not be able to be fooled into thinking they are “Catholic” if they are not.


#14

[quote=TPJCatholic]Is there not some way that the Catholic Church can at least remove it’s name and support from those institutions? People should not be able to be fooled into thinking they are “Catholic” if they are not.
[/quote]

The courst are most reluctant to get into such issues, as they require the court to make a determination based on theological issues. In other words, the court will not make a decision in a lawsuit which requires it to determine if an institution, such as a college or hospital, has violated a theological rule (such as following the Magisterium).

To give an example: the bishop in Hawaii attempted to silence two individuals through excommunication. They appealed, and eventually Rome held that the bishop could not. They then sued the diocese (I believe libel/slander/defamation of character) and the court refused to hear the case, as it would have required making a determination which was a church issue.

Another example is Catholics for a Free Choice. Their greates funding comes from secular institutions which appear to have an animosity to the Church; they espouse things which are blatantly anti-Catholic, and there is little or nothing the Church can do.

As an aside, the Church throughout history has shown a reluctance, to a greater or lesser degree at times, but a definite reluctance, to excommunicate individuals. The procedure itself is not quick, and requires that the bishop follow certain procedural guidelines. If a bishop was to excommunicate every individual who publicly steps over some guidelines, he would soon find himself wrapped up in so much time-consuming work that he would have little time to do anything else. And I don’t know too many bishops who lack for something to do.

Additionally, the bishop has to weigh the pros and cons, because he is going to face the consequences. It is simple to say that the Church would be a better place if we just cleaned house; it is also simplistic. In a pluralistic society, it is entirely possible to do way more harm than good. You and I might call the excommunication courageous, or righteous, or any number of things; but it may also be the issue that causes many Catholics to turn away, and non-Catholics to refuse to join the Church. The old phrase “There are more flies attracted to honey than to vinegar” is still true. Prudence is still a virtue. We may not feel that the bishops are prudent in allowing, for example, Notre Dame to ignore the mandatum procedure. But the charism of prudence is the bishop’s, not ours, to exercise, and our opinion of whether or not he is acting prudently ultimately is just that: an opinion. And the bottom line is that our opinion and $1.65 will get us somewhere on the local transportation system…


#15

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