Help! Questions about the Rosary and Sabbath

Hi everyone! Apologies in advance if I’m posting in the wrong forum, but I’ve got a problem I’d love to get help with.

Lately I’ve been getting a ton of questions from my friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist and her friend (I’m not sure of his denomination but he’s a former Catholic who became Wiccan and then may have changed back to Christianity). I’m honestly not confident in my skills at apologetics, and I have been trying to answer every question that they ask me as faithfully and as precisely as I can, but right now, honestly, I’m at my wit’s end. I’ve been writing and researching so much that I want to tear my hair out.

If anyone could give me links or guidance on his questions, I’d be extremely grateful. Excuse me for not going at this myself and gathering evidence, but I’ve been alone at this for at least two days now and my patience is understandably wearing thin.

Here’s his post as originally written to me:

"yeah i can definitely understand defending your faith i have been there plenty of times

um i have some quick questions: if when we die we do not surely die and we go to heaven then what’s the point of Jesus’ return? He could simply wait for the human race to kill itself off.

the rosary itself is not biblical and as for mary’s importance look up luke 11:27-28 “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But He said, Yea rather, Blessed are they that hear the Word of God, and keep it.” so he basically says here that shes not blessed for being my mom but for hearing and keeping the word of God.

Sabbath being the Seventh Day:

This is deadly important because in Matthew 5:17-19 where Jesus says “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulil. For Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”

The Commandments (Exodus 20:1-20): in order to talk about keeping the commandments we have to know them and since we know that Jesus said that he didn’t come to do away with the laws, even though they are old testament, we must keep true to them. Yes? Okay the fourth commandment says “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do and work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor ty stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it” (Exodus 20:8-11) this is of course on line with Genesis 2:1-3 “Thus the haven and the earth were finished, and all the host o them. And on the seventh day, God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made”

God blessed and sanctified that particular day and to worship on any other day is to break the fourth commandment which is a little horn thing to do (Daniel 19-27)

The concept of original sin is not biblical.

As I recall Jesus only said “the Lords prayer” once. (This was in my defense of repetitive prayer. I had said, “Rote prayer isn’t just mindless babble: it’s talking to God. That quote you’re referring to is out of context. “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathens do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” That means that these people thought that if they kept repeating themselves they were going to get more attention from God. God isn’t going to give you more or less attention based on how many times you say something. And like I said, Jesus himself prayed in repetition (Our Father, and check out Matthew 26:44 and Mark 14:39). It’s not some sort of incantation that’s going to conjure up God or anything, but it’s something that can help you and that you can meditate on.”)

And I’ll definitely take your advice and research Maryanism. (He had asked me about why Catholics honor Mary and I had told him to research Marian doctrine. From what I’ve seen on the web, I’m assuming the term Maryanism is referring to it being a pagan belief? I want to clarify to him that our honoring the Blessed Mother isn’t pagan worship.)

You should try to find the correct copy of Albert Pike’s Morals And Dogma… there are two versions one that the public can get and one that only high level masons can get and are reclaimed at their death. It explains that the mason bow at all alters and acknowledge that all other deities are the same deity Lucifer head of Kabbalah and it also explains how they use these other religions to intentionally lead people astray"

Thank you in advance for any and all help you can give me. I’d sincerely appreciate it.

While I may not be able to help you with your problem you may feel needs to be attended to now, I can tell you that your problem with the person you are dialouging with is not Mary particularly.
It is in their understanding, or lack of in the Trinity.

Hope this helped you

While I may not be able to help you with your problem you may feel needs to be attended to now, I can tell you that your problem with the person you are dialouging with is not Mary particularly.

Oh, I know. When this started these two people had been talking about Catholicism by using some questionable sources as the basis of their arguments. I called them out on it, and the only reason that I’ve been answering his and her questions is because I feel I have the obligation to give them answers with reliable sources. Just trying to lead by example. XD

Hi everyone! Apologies in advance if I’m posting in the wrong forum, but I’ve got a problem I’d love to get help with.
Ill do my best. Im not a professional, but I do know a lot.

Thanks! I’m trying to advance in my own faith as well and any help helps. :slight_smile:

if when we die we do not surely die and we go to heaven then what’s the point of Jesus’ return? He could simply wait for the human race to kill itself off.
I don’t understand his question. Jesus will return to confront Satan at the end of time. He will not come back to save more souls. He already opened the gates to Heaven for us when he died on the cross. We must walk through those gates though by ourselves.

Sorry for not elucidating on this one, but he had asked me how Mary can be an intercessor for us and Jesus if she’s dead. He said that once someone dies that the Bible says that they are in eternal slumber (or something to that affect). I said that Jesus died so that we could make the choice to be with him in Heaven or reject him through sin, and that if we were supposed to pray for the dead and have the dead pray for us that it’d be a moot point if we were all merely sleeping.

I also told him that Mary was born without original sin to be a vessel for Jesus and she’s not exactly like all of us, which is probably why he says that original sin isn’t biblical. I know it stems around the fact that original sin comes from Adam and Eve after they disobeyed God and is a term for the condition that we all inherited from them, but I don’t know if there’s any other biblical verses that could support me in his argument.

God blessed and sanctified that particular day and to worship on any other day is to break the fourth commandment which is a little horn thing to do (Daniel 19-27)
Ok, this is where the Seventh Day Adventist name comes from. First off, I cannot respond to the Daniel verses, because I do not know which Chapter he is refering to. Daniel is a large book, and I need a chapter too.

I think he’s referring to this, and I may just end up sending him that link. Then again, I don’t think I need it, because he’s still not giving me proof that the Sabbath is Saturday and not Sunday.

The Catholic Church does not allow its members to join the masons, as they are a secretive society. I don’t know what the guy was posting about.

These two are listening to a conspiracy theorist who is a former Catholic married to the daughter of a Mason leader who claims that the Catholic Church is trying to take over the world with the Masons… which is the reason I even got started talking to them in the first place. XD

Thanks for all of the help!

From CA Quick Questions - On Sunday worship
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=452
To understand Jesus’ fulfillment of the law most fully, read the book of Romans. Paul is eloquent in his explanations regarding the Jewish Law. I’m also quite sure he wasn’t a Mason. lol
CA Featured article - On the rosary, vain repetition & Mary (excellent explanations)
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea3.asp

The bottom line is these “friends” of yours may be able to pull certain “insights” from out-of-context biblical references; the fact is, while the insight may be new to you, it is far from being new to Catholic Theologians. The conspiracy theorists would have us believe that millions of people over the course of 2000 years have been “duped” into worshiping pagan gods.

Ummmm… WHAA??? Are you kidding me?

Jesus is Lord. Duh. We (Catholics) believe this and accept this and try EVERYTHING in our power to fulfill exactly what Jesus has desired from us. Look to the lives of the Saints as example. We’re talking people who have spent their entire lives considering the correct answer to these questions and ones we haven’t even thought of. Do you honestly think that ALL of those beautiful-in-spirit people got it wrong?

Look where Seventh Day Adventists come from, on the other hand.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church
And even more importantly: catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp

Oh and, last I checked Masons were fiercely anti-Catholic, why would they hate something they control?

:shrug:

turn it around and ask them what makes them believe in a prophetise ellen white? they venere this woman and reject the Mother of our Lord.

Thank you so, so much InspiritCarol. I agree with you completely, and thank you for the links.

The bottom line is these “friends” of yours may be able to pull certain “insights” from out-of-context biblical references; the fact is, while the insight may be new to you, it is far from being new to Catholic Theologians.

See, that’s the other reason why I want to show through simple reason that what they’re saying isn’t new. I had to study apologetics in school so I know what they’re saying can be simply countered with logic and reason (and verifiable sources)… it’s just that I’ve gotten so rusty that it feels like I’m learning all of this all over again and I want to make sure I’m right on all of this. But I’m so glad that you’ve all been able to help.

turn it around and ask them what makes them believe in a prophetise ellen white? they venere this woman and reject the Mother of our Lord.

Pure genius.

My friend sent me this (even though I said that I wanted to stop debating with them). I’ve got some idea of what I should say but I’d like any input or any more sources you all may have since I don’t have much knowledge about the Masons.

Ugh, I could explain the Catholic/Mason connection better if I actually memorized all the stuff I studied x.x. Yes they don’t allow Masons in the church, for good reason, they’re separate sects, they serve different perposes. The Mason’s diety is always light and dark, good and evil, pan and panic-- the Catholic church is their light face they show the world.

The Lord’s prayer was told to us when someone asked how we should pray. He said pray after this manner-- then said what we call the Lord’s prayer, then immediately said not to use vein repetition when praying.

Catholics and Freemasons parts of the same sect? Your friend needs to establish that he isn’t a conspiracy theorist. Is this the same friend, or do you just happen to have a lot of friends that really don’t understand the catholic church?

This is one of the two friends that I was talking to (different than the one asking the questions that I first posted), but they both believe the Catholic/Mason connection. The man they’re listening to is Walter Veith who, from what I understand, is also under the impression that 9/11 was a conspiracy as well.

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture


1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament****

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable


"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example


“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.****

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example


“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)


5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation****


“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense. ****

Lisa, seriously…you need new friends. :o

I’m sorry to hear that.

Articles on Seventh-day Adventism and Related Topics

Seventh-Day Adventism
catholic.com/library/Seve…_Adventism.asp

**Seventh-day wondering **
By Joseph M. Pavicic
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp

**CHANGING THE SABBATH **
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312chap.asp

Early Church Fathers on Sabbath or Sunday?
catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

Hunting the Whore of Babylon
catholic.com/library/Hunt…of_Babylon.asp

The Whore of Babylon
catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp

A PRIVATE VERSION OF HELL
By MICHELLE L. ARNOLD
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.asp

The Hell There Is!
ECFs on the Existence of Hell
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

ECFs on the Antichrist
catholic.com/library/The_Antichrist.asp

Wow, thank you for all of that information, Randy! :smiley: My conversation with my friends is starting to wind down (thanks to everyone’s help in part), but I’m totally going to read through all of those links for my own sake. Thank you very much!

Lisa, seriously…you need new friends. :o

Honestly, this is probably one of the first times I’ve ever gotten into a discussion about religion and I’ve known one of them for a fairly long time. Usually I just ignore getting into this kind of conversation, but now I’m kind of seeing that not only is it important to speak up but it’s also really helpful for my own faith, too. I just keep thinking that maybe there’s a reason why I know them in the first place, you know? XD

Anyway, thanks again everyone!

:tiphat:

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