Help To Solve Liberal / Conservative Differences In Opinion


#1

Once each person makes a conscious / unconscious decision to disregard who should pay, justice, Truth, high moral standards, etc., don’t we ALL want to feel good physically, emotionally and spiritually, feed the poor, save the Earth, etc.?

It seems more and more people are getting their values from pop culture media. The agnostic-leaners in the media figured out several decades ago how to drag perfectly fine church-going people over to agnostic dark side values: pander to the basic “feelgood” instincts of sex, drugs, “being correct,” gambling, etc. That’s why we see so much of these in the media. They are ways to break people down. More people have become feelgood seekers who can’t resist pleasuring themselves to the detriment of “Love” relationships, yet the media portrays this destructive behavior as bravado and prowess. Marriage and birth rates in “progressive” Europe and the U.S. have dropped precipitously. That’s no sign of healthy relationships and values. The media is attempting to kill True Love and romance and selling people into the feelgood self-centered slavery of the basic instincts. Too many people are being robbed from a life of depth and True Love without realizing it. Yet, it is the Church’s guidlines for living that Save us from more selfishness.

I think this is why some liberals don’t like conservatives: Beyond drugs and sex, it “feels good,” to have the famous media pronounce you to be correct when one COPIES the media’s values. It’s like validation. You feel good just for having the same opinion as them. Think about it: the U.S. is in record debt, the post office says they need to close on Saturdays to avoid a rise in postage, many local municipalities are nearly bankrupt, yet anyone who disagrees with the media’s “feelgood” message IS DEMONIZED AS A MEANY. They have conditioned the dreamer to abandon the Truth in favor of feeling good and correct. The dreamer gets to feelgood because the dreamer believes he/she is superior and correct because the dreamer’s opinion has been validated by the media’s broadcast message. They have sold the dreamer a dream that makes the dreamer feel good by MERELY the reinforcement of THEIR values, despite looming bankruptcy. One can make the case that it is an almost selfish dream because it made the dreamer feel good and it was EASY: the dreamer didn’t have to do anything.

There’s too much conflict between perfectly good Catholic Liberals and Conservatives. We need healing, dialogue and understanding. What say you?


#2

HERETICS -

There should be no Catholic liberals or conservatives regarding Faith and Morals.
Those desenting are Catholic heretics.

The doctrine we are all required to believe and publically state - if we choose to be a Catholic - is contained in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which was first printed in the US in March of 2000.
Anything different is heresy, and that includes in our blogging and letters to the Editior.

As Cardinal John O’Conner once stated: “The Catholic Church is not a salad bar. You don’t get to pick and choose what you want to believe”.


#3

I say,
"Follow the Pope and the Teachings of the Catholic Church."

:)

:angel1: :highprayer: :angel1:


#4

I like what Fr Benedict Groeschel once said: "I am neither a Liberal Catholic, nor a Conservative Catholic", but an Authentic Catholic.

I say: "Amen to that".


#5

I think we get into dangerous territory when we assume a “liberal Catholic” for instance is somehow less devout or a “cafeteria Catholic.”

(I’m just using the word Liberal in this scenario, because it’s what I called myself and am basing this on my own personal experiences. I’m certain “conservative Catholics” have experienced similar scenarios along the lines of, “you’re bigoted, close minded”’ etc. etc.)

I think before people automatically assume one’s lifestyle, values, or faith in practice when hearing those labels, they ought to get to know the person first. It’s highly likely they have more in common than not. Sure, they won’t vote for the same political person, but I think if you really analyze conservative and liberals what they all want is equal treatment and a sense of justice.

You know, the really sad thing, is, that the older I get, the more I realize these labels such as “liberal” and “conservative” are just that. People are much more complex than that.


#6

Agreed!

I do not know whether I am liberal, conservative, or whatever. I know that I stick to the teachings of the Magisterium, despise moral relativism, agree with the Pope and I think “mass-once-a-week-nothing-else-required-of-me” Catholics should should let Jesus play a bigger role in their life!


#7

No. There are many who do not care or actually thrive on harming others. They are not deranged or mentally unbalanced. They have made a choice.

This Rousseau assumption of inherent goodness (or the noble savage) is simply incorrect and leads to an inability to acknowledge and identify evil.


#8

Most of you are right on target.

The sins of Pride and Disobedience (my will, rather than God’s will) - causes disagreements in the Church.
If a Catholic has an obstinate denial of a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, they are heretics.

The Pope (and Magisterium) have provided us with the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” so that we may form a right conscience in matters of Faith and Morals…
We have an obligation to read it unless there is a very good excuse.

In the front of this Catechism are two letters from Pope John Paul II, who set up the Commission to write this Catechism. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger headed up the Commission.


#9

[quote="Joseph629, post:4, topic:197694"]
I like what Fr Benedict Groeschel once said: "I am neither a Liberal Catholic, nor a Conservative Catholic", but an Authentic Catholic.

I say: "Amen to that".

[/quote]

:thumbsup: I agree.

The issue really is who has been brainwashed the most or been driven into popular culture.

The OP is missing the point as he seems to be writing only from what he perceives as a "conservative" and therefore "correct" in his mind's standpoint. They are also defining moral values with fiscal values, they are, no matter what people tell you, 2 completely distinct things that have been intermingled on the American public to the detriment of the nation. My conclusion I hope will show that I agree with neither but I'm sure my disdain for one of the parties will show through in my writing as well.

The Church, from a sociopolitical view, especially if you have read the Pope's writings of the last few years is almost 100% in line with the Democratic Party in the US from a Fiscal standpoint.

The Church from a moral standpoint is often usually in line with what is stated by the Republican party.

The main problem is the issue of abortion. If most of the Democrats were not Pro-Choice, the body of the Church in the US would probably be 90% Democrat like it was before 1972.

Remember that the Pope is looking at things from a world viewpoint. If you look at the rest of the world from a political standpoint, we haven't had a truly fiscally left (much less a socialist) President... ever. Obama is still on the right side of the political spectrum, much farther right than the Pope himself in regards to fiscal beliefs.

The Church teaches a social justice Theology that is not the "social justice" you hear about on Glenn Beck or what most Protestant churches are teaching. The Church teaches that one of the reasons we are here are to do corporeal works of mercy. Those works are just at our Parish level, they should extend to our States and Nation and even the whole world if possible. How many people has the Church fed and clothed in the Name of Christ? Read the sermon on the Mount the listen to Fiscal Conservative ideas and see if you can make the 2 match?

So when the OP was stating we needed to get the 2 groups talking he was kind of on the right track, but the issue is that we need to be Catholic before assign ourselves to any political party.

Truthfully the unbridled greed, possibly unjust wars, promotion of the whole "me" idea of only looking out for yourself, the promotion of death penalty, lack of regards to environmental issues (some of these are mortal sins now remember?) and the lack of any real movement (they put most of the judges on the bench and have been in power twice as long as the Dems since RvW) and my own personal experience of them trying to train me to lie to people to get money from them force me to leave the Republican party almost 20 years ago.

Yet the Democrats seem to take issues that are so morally against the Church it's difficult to justify voting for them either. Of course if you realize less babies died under Clinton (it was the largest decrease in abortion ever) then more started dying under GWB... that might make a difference (don't believe me check out the CDC website). When you realize that the social programs for young mothers do make a difference... when you realize we are ranked 24th in infant mortality because your Government won't help young mothers but gives tax cuts to people making enough money to have multiple palatial homes... it might bother you... or maybe not.

The poor will always be with us, but in the greatest nation on Earth when we have so much, no one should not be able to go to the Dr, regardless of their social standings, no mother should not have the money to buy formula or afford the basic food needed to properly breastfeed their child, no parent should have to watch their child come home in a box because the President had self-esteem issues and needed his fathers approval to the point he fabricated information to take our nation to war... this might lead you to say... it's a paradox that less babies die under pro-choice presidents but a life is truly a life.

Remember that neither candidate supported "gay" marriage last time and that the stimulus was crafted by GWB administration 9 months... remember guys NINE MONTHS before Lehman Brothers went under... they KNEW it was probably doing to happen but did nothing waiting to see if it wouldn't until after Nov 4th... is that the type of people we want in office?

On the other hand, even though their fiscal policies are more in line with the teachings of the Church, do we REALLY want people in the WH who don't believe life begins at conception? I personally don't care what religion they are but to me it's a medical/biological issue. What groups are the Democrats beholden to that they can't see medical evidence staring them in the face?!?

So we are back to the question... right?

My answer... we need another party. As Catholics we do NOT fit with the tea party, we do not fit with the Republicans, we don't fit with the Democrats, we really aren't libertarians either...

We, if we follow our Pope and the direction of the Church in other areas, are Fiscally Liberal Moral Conservatives and frankly that party just doesn't exist in US politics.

Maybe we should create it?


#10

I agree!!! I have been saying for years, I think we ought to have an American Christian Democrat Party (like many european countries have).


#11

Are you saying that people are abandoning Church doctrine because pop culture media is attempting to define social justice?


#12

[quote="jwashu, post:9, topic:197694"]
:thumbsup: I agree.

The issue really is who has been brainwashed the most or been driven into popular culture.

The OP is missing the point as he seems to be writing only from what he perceives as a "conservative" and therefore "correct" in his mind's standpoint. They are also defining moral values with fiscal values, they are, no matter what people tell you, 2 completely distinct things that have been intermingled on the American public to the detriment of the nation. My conclusion I hope will show that I agree with neither but I'm sure my disdain for one of the parties will show through in my writing as well.

The Church, from a sociopolitical view, especially if you have read the Pope's writings of the last few years is almost 100% in line with the Democratic Party in the US from a Fiscal standpoint.

The Church from a moral standpoint is often usually in line with what is stated by the Republican party.

So when the OP was stating we needed to get the 2 groups talking he was kind of on the right track, but the issue is that we need to be Catholic before assign ourselves to any political party.

Yet the Democrats seem to take issues that are so morally against the Church it's difficult to justify voting for them either. Of course if you realize less babies died under Clinton (it was the largest decrease in abortion ever) then more started dying under GWB... that might make a difference (don't believe me check out the CDC website). When you realize that the social programs for young mothers do make a difference... when you realize we are ranked 24th in infant mortality because your Government won't help young mothers but gives tax cuts to people making enough money to have multiple palatial homes... it might bother you... or maybe not.

The poor will always be with us, but in the greatest nation on Earth when we have so much, no one should not be able to go to the Dr, regardless of their social standings, no mother should not have the money to buy formula or afford the basic food needed to properly breastfeed their child, no parent should have to watch their child come home in a box because the President had self-esteem issues and needed his fathers approval to the point he fabricated information to take our nation to war... this might lead you to say... it's a paradox that less babies die under pro-choice presidents but a life is truly a life.

We, if we follow our Pope and the direction of the Church in other areas, are Fiscally Liberal Moral Conservatives and frankly that party just doesn't exist in US politics.

Maybe we should create it?

[/quote]

In the case of the good samaritan sitting in a line of cars in rush hour traffic at a stoplight, the good samaritan allows a car that just recently pulled up from the side to enter into the traffic. The good samaritan spends a few seconds waving the car into the line of traffic as the light turns green, the benefactor waves and proceeds, then traffic starts moving again. The point is that few people think about the last 3 cars in line that failed to get through the stoplight while it was green. They were waiting longer than the car that just pulled up, and now must sit through the next light. The natural tendency is to think about what good was done with less regard for what was sacrificed in return (the 3 cars that didn't make it through the light) and whether or not it was just. This is just a minor metaphor of society's larger problems. The tax code does the same. It feels good to think about the benefactor, as long as we don't think about what responsible people were forced to sacrifice.

The government forcibly taking more money from responsible citizens is not the answer if some receivers are just going to spend it on non-essential vices, entertainment, drugs, etc. The 24th place infant mortality is primarily due to DRUG USE DURING PREGNANCY, which is a reflection of values. If you want to give more money to people with "wayward" values, they are only going to screw up their lives faster, farther, and more severely, and you'll be an accomplice. Just look at the wayward celebs, athletes, life of Father Corapi before he became a priest, and the list of people who won the lottery who said that winning the lottery ruined their lives. Values are more importantbut don't expect a political party to legislate values. People would rather ignore values in favor of what "feels good." Money enables the destruction of people with wayward values. If people can "find" money for entertainment and drugs, they can find it for life's necessities like health insurance, that is, unless enough dreamers think it's the answer and vote for it. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's the truth. We need a Truth and Values party. We're never going to find it as long as mainstream media keeps people down by promoting Vices of love-less sex and drugs in pop culture media. Sex, drugs, less sacrificial love, broken homes. Sex, drugs, less sacrificial love, broken homes. And the cycle is becoming more widespread.

We need to drastically cut down our financial support of pop culture media. We're feeding our own destruction.


#13

I feel that the crux of society's problems stem from the challenge of distinguishing the Truth for each individual's interpretation of Wants versus Needs. Without living one's life via the Church's Covenant for behavior, all the new independent individualists are free to create their own values for their life's direction. Our brains "want" to be pleasured. When Faith is not present in a person, they are more likely to allow their life's direction to be guided by their basic instincts to pleasure the brain, or, what feels good. That's why so many are being treated for various addictions. People whose Free Will is 51% stronger than their desire for brain pleasure are strong enough to avoid these addictions. Otherwise, anyone with a middle income could afford to be addicted to sex, porn, drugs, food, gambling, etc. and need treatment for it. The 7 deadly sins would be preventative, but for those who have placed self at the center of their individual universe instead of God, the self only Knows and seeks brain pleasure for Self, like a child. Of course, anyone who grew up in a loving home REMEMBERS what it was like to have mom and dad Love them, pay for everything, take responsibility for their general welfare, etc. SO it's only natural for us, as adults, to want to go back to that place again, and REMAIN there. Herein lies one of the central paradoxes of modern society: the easier and more fun a child has while growing up, the less likely they will want to part with these brain pleasures to sacrifice for the next generation. This is why marriage and birthrates are declining throughout Europe and the U.S. Marriage, commitment to others, raising kids, etc. is too much of a Sacrifice for those whose desire for brain pleasure guides 51% of the direction of their lives while Free Will is a minor 49% (like a child). In my opinion, denying that Free Will exists is a natural excuse to allow the brain to have more pleasure, like childhood all over again. It sheds the mature adult responsibility to sacrifice for others.

The degree of freedom to pleasure one's brain, I feel, is one of the central distinctions between liberal and conservative viewpoints. Lower moral standards allow more brain pleasure via the Vices, but this takes us farther away from True Love and the Church. As standards of adult behavior are lowered, so is the responsibility level. The man who desires more brain pleasure for himself will run from the responsibility of raising kids, thereby turning the woman into a sex-and-run victim. Modern society's answer to this is abortion and raising taxes. Raising taxes is necessary to create a nanny-state to take care of it's fatherless citizens, since an increasing number of citizens are not interested in taking responsibility for themselves (like a child). Liberal adults, who dream of an impossible child-like existence for all of us, receive more brain pleasure by proposing more welfare for able-bodied individuals who have free willingly chosen to pleasure their brains above taking responsibility for actions. The dream is benevolent and feels good, but it permits lower standards to continue, taxes the responsible, and indebts the nation.The cycle can only escalate since the standards for adult behavior keep getting lower and lower, as we become childlike in our desires to please Self. Meanwhile, the only true answer is to raise individual standards at a time when individuals are choosing to lower them. The bickering will only escalate as individuals free willingly choose to have different values. Look at all the friction between liberals and conservatives within our own Church. Conservatives who want to avoid a bigger nanny state with lower standards are painted as meanies by those who believe it's possible for society to live a childlike level of responsibility. That's where the Church has had it solved for 2000 years. But don't expect mainstream media or politicians to promote it since they don't "get it."


#14

Partly. But what I was really alluding to was that everyone does not want to do all those good things you suggested. Some people are evil and enjoy it. They are not sociopaths either as psychology would have us believe.


#15

even people who believe similar things like finding something to argue about.


#16

I think that the most important thing we need to remember when watching the liberal media is that they are there to make money; they are motivated by Greed, one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Why do they encourage people to have sex outside of marriage, often, and with multiple partners, and attempt to degrade and make fun of those of us with morals and values? They are selling condoms, abortions, and birth control pills. How much would they sell if the the media preached Catholic/Christian values? Almost none. The liberal media is also known to lie about statistics of how many people get STDs, the failure rates of condoms, etc. to get people to trust in and buy more birth control. Since condoms don’t always work, more and more people are getting herpes, VD, etc., which cost MONEY to treat. I recently went to the Planned Parenthood website and saw that abortions and morning after pills cost around $300-$500. No wonder they want everyone to be promiscuous! And now they are trying to get government money to pay for their abortions.

Why have advertisements for Casinos, encouraging people to gamble away their family’s food and rent money in these difficult economic times? Casinos are designed to make money. Every game has much higher odds that the house will win than an individual walking in to play their games. The chances of you winning are low, people often spend more than they originally intended, and even if you do win, the Casino is still making money from everyone else.

They are even advertising medications on television! Ask your doctor about ____. How in the world is a regular person without a medical degree or any medical training supposed to be able to diagnose an illness and treat him/herself? Even medical students go through a phase where they keep thinking something is wrong with them, as they learn more about diseases and how to treat them.

The bottom line: the media doesn’t care about you. They don’t care about your soul, your physical and mental health, or whether or not you are living life according to God. They just want your money.

The media: http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/64.gif


#17

The fringe “liberals” and the fringe “conservitive” are just as dangerous as one another. It is just as sinful for a priest to bar someone from attending mass becuase they aren’t wearing a full-length skirt and shirt that dosn’t show any skin above the elbow as it is for a liberal priest to open communion.

I have been in both situations and both drive people from the truth.

Yes, the “mass media” is harmful. But I think very few people in my generation truly “buy” what they’re selling. Sure we take the gadgets and watch some of the TV shows but virtually no one I know uses one source (ABC, CNN, FOX) to get their news. No one i know actually believes the Glee kids get up and sing, nor do they believe that the Desprite Housewives really are happy, nor do they believe that crime is really solved like in NCIS/CIS/Law&Order/Bones…et all. We have become a culture fixated on escapist fiction becuase our real lives are fraught with such drama.

Just look at the threads. People in their 60’s getting divorced and tearing apart their families, adult children having multiple partners and producing numerous illegitimate offspring. Children being abused and unable to be rescued from their abusers because of a court of law. This is the world we face. So few people come from stable two-parent homes and those who do are often victimized by people who didn’t.

It is always the fringe who do the most harm, the fringe “conservitive” Mormons who practice polygamy with little girls becoming wives to men their grandfather’s age, the Moslems who want to blow up the country, the Evangelicals who protest solider’s funerals, and the Catholics who turn churches into clubs, weather it be a “trady” club or a “open fellowship” club.

We must first focus on providing some level ground before we make decisions on what’s best for people. Making decisions and conclusions without hearing what’s really going on is just going to drive more people to fringe groups.


#18

My point is that I find it hard to believe that people believe similar things.

Here’s the true story that prompted me to question people’s motivations:

For years, my in-laws would but a mountain of presents for each of my kids at Christmas. I mean about 25-30 presents each, plus a large stocking. Of course, this is in addition to Santa. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but my wife and I knew they didn’t need so much, they didn’t play with all of it, we didn’t want them to get spoiled, and we were running out of room for all of it. So, one year, we tactfully asked if they would consider buying half as many presents and instead put the money in a college education fund. What do you think happened? They were offended. Then I asked myself why they would possibly be offended. Why not make the kids’ lives easier later on with less debt? It was then that I realized that buying and giving the presents made them (the grandparents) feel good. In a strange way, I felt they were actually being a little selfish. I think they knew that saving for college would be better for them, but saving for college doesn’t provide the “feel goods.”

Another true story example: I was walking in the shallow water at the beach, when a public park worker in charge of renting kayaks informed me that I was killing small fish by walking in the shallow water. Wow, should we close all the beaches because this guy wants to “feel good” in the green movement with his self-annointed righteousness and moral superiority? I busted out laughing and asked him if he was serious. Well, he wasn’t. If I weren’t so shocked I would have asked him if he felt guilty eating plants which are living creatures, or about walking down the street, killing millions of bacteria and fungi, which are living creatures too.

My point is that some people will dream beautiful dreams which will make them “feel good” in an apparent attempt to achieve their own version of social justice and self-congratulations without regard for real justice or the Church’s values.


#19

This is very presumptious. Everyone has their own love-language. The in-law’s could of been gift giving. They did not see the college fund as a gift, therefore, to them it was not speaking the same love language. The more you know about love language the more you can understand people. It can be cultural (Italian Grandma’s cooking) or personal (someone who likes hugs) but it’s vitally important in understanding others.

Another true story example: I was walking in the shallow water at the beach, when a public park worker in charge of renting kayaks informed me that I was killing small fish by walking in the shallow water. Wow, should we close all the beaches because this guy wants to “feel good” in the green movement with his self-annointed righteousness and moral superiority? I busted out laughing and asked him if he was serious. Well, he wasn’t. If I weren’t so shocked I would have asked him if he felt guilty eating plants which are living creatures, or about walking down the street, killing millions of bacteria and fungi, which are living creatures too.

We’re also called to be good stewards. Period. The ecosystem can be fragile and if a forest ranger knows how to protect it. You might not think it’s a big deal but it CAN be. There were beaches long before there were people. And other environmental factors can come in. Perhaps another ecosystem was destroyed that is causing it to be difficult for the fish to live. There are alot of things that going into reparing a broken ecosystem, too. Basic Ecology 101. My brother’s a trained wild forest fire fighter. He knows so much about how the disappearance of one creature can cause a chain reaction. Remember that the parks are the forrest ranger’s work place. Would you like it if some stranger walked in on your job an started criticizing you. Seriously.


#20

Pope Benedict stated this past week that the enemies of the Church are from within.

If all Catholics would faithfully follow the teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, there would be very few enemies from within.


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