Help with this attack on VII


#1

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/The_most_specific_heresy_in_Vatican_II.html


#2

[quote=Lazerlike42]mostholyfamilymonastery.com/The_most_specific_heresy_in_Vatican_II.html
[/quote]

The Dimond brothers are Feneyites(they say that all who do not get baptized with water and profess the Catholic faith are gauranteed hell no matter what) and their doctrines can be proved wrong easily by just looking at what the Church has taught through the centuries. When the council of Trent says that “baptism or the desire” of boaptism is necessary it is very clear that baptism of desire is a true doctrine. The catechism of Trent, which was written shortly after the council by Pope Pius VI is also clear when it specifically speaks about the baptism of blood and that of desire. The catechism off Pius X is also clear on the issue that Baptism of desire is a possibility for those who are not baptized.


#3

[quote=jimmy]The Dimond brothers are Feneyites(they say that all who do not get baptized with water and profess the Catholic faith are gauranteed hell no matter what) and their doctrines can be proved wrong easily by just looking at what the Church has taught through the centuries. When the council of Trent says that “baptism or the desire” of boaptism is necessary it is very clear that baptism of desire is a true doctrine. The catechism of Trent, which was written shortly after the council by Pope Pius VI is also clear when it specifically speaks about the baptism of blood and that of desire. The catechism off Pius X is also clear on the issue that Baptism of desire is a possibility for those who are not baptized.
[/quote]

This is true but the link does not speak about baptism.


#4

[quote=Lazerlike42]This is true but the link does not speak about baptism.
[/quote]

God does not reject the Jews. The Jews choose their way just as any Christian chooses their way. God desires the salvation of all. God calls all to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that includes the Jews. The bible is also clear that Christ died for all, and the Jews are included in this. The Jews are called to accept Christ.

The VII council is also clear that those who do not profess the Catholic faith are outside the Church as Florence does. I can’t recall the exact place in the council where it says this but I recently read it.

I will allow someone else to answer concerning the context of the statements of Nostrae Aetate about God not rejecting the Jews but I would gaurantee that the author is taking this statement out of context and using it in a different understanding than nostrae aetate intends.


#5

[quote=Lazerlike42]mostholyfamilymonastery.com/The_most_specific_heresy_in_Vatican_II.html
[/quote]

[quote=MHFM]Vatican II Declaration, Nostra Aetate (#4): “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or cursed by God, as if such views followed from the holy scriptures.”
[/quote]

Objecively “the Jews” (the Jewish race collectively) have been rejected by God, “cut off” from the house of Israel, and are under a curse.

However, individually, when they convert and become Christians, they are again “grafted in” to the body of Christ, and the curse is lifted.

The above statements - about the Jews being rejected by men and under a curse - should not surprise anyone, for the entire human race is also “under a curse” (original sin), and “rejected” by God, until they receive baptism. The difference is, while the entire human race is under a curse, and “rejected”, for what Adam did, the Jews are under a second curse for what their leaders did in crucifying our Lord.

The Jews (collectively) have been cut off: “For I say unto you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I will honor my ministry. If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are of my flesh (i.e Jews), and may save some of them… And if some of the branches be cut off (from the house of Israel), and thou (Gentiles) being a wild olive, art grafted in them, and are made a partaker of the root… Thou wilt say then: The branches were cut off, that I might be grafted in. Well: because of unbelief they (the unbelieving Jews) were cut off.” (Romans 11).

The Jews are under a curse: “For as many as are of the works of the law (i.e the Old Testament) are under a curse” (Gal. 3:10). "… the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men. Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sin always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end" (1 Thes 2:14-16).

Objectively speaking, and collectively speaking, the Jews have been cut off and rejected by God. They, and their covenant, have been replaced by Christians and the New Covenant. “Christ annuls the first Covenant to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9).

Vatican II, and other post concilliar documents often speak subjectively, which can be confusing and even misleading if the distinction between the objective and subjective and is not recgnized. Prior to Vatican II, the Church almost never spoke subjectively, but always objectively. The above statement from Vatican II is subjective which is why it appears to contradict what the Bible and the Church have always taught.

You may want to read through this article: thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/are-jews-gods-chosen-people.html


#6

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.