Hispanics and Our Lady of Guadalupe?

I’ve just read the beautiful resources offered on the thread about Our Lady of Guadalupe. What a powerful sign of the Grace of God when Our Lady appeared to Juan Diego. A virtually pagan country converted to Christ by the intercession of the Virgin Mary!

This thread will probably offend our Hispanic friends because I know how devoted they are to this icon of Mexico. I know how thankful they are for their Catholic conversion.

However, let’s face the reality: Catholic voting statistics show that American citizens of Catholic/Hispanic origin, in the majority, vote for pro-abort political candidates !!! Most Hispanic legislators, including Loretta Sanchez of California, are radically pro-abort??? Illinois has several pro-abort Hispanic legislators.

The Hispanics, like Black Americans, register as Democrats and vote for Democrat pro-abort candidates. !!! They, like Blacks, are attracted to a “socialist/entitlement Party” for what they perceive that Party will give them, not for that Party’s moral ideology. I understand that even illegal Hispanic people are willing to illegally vote the Democratic ticket - like in California.

I just can’t square this apparent hypocrisy in my mind !!!

Why would a people so outwardly devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe, who wears the sign, a black sash, as a symbol of her Divine Maternity - egregiously betray the very
essence of who Our Lady is and what she stands for? Why would they betray The Christ, who is co-creator with all mankind, and allow His Creation to be murdered in cold blood in the womb by supporting pro-abort politicians???

How can a people separate their devotion to Our Lady of Gudalupe and betray her very person in the voting booth?

Can someone give me a clear answer?

There were two Aztec cultures: the pre-eminent one, which forbade human sacrifice and cannibalism, centered on the cultus of the Mother & Son (like Genesis 3:15 Woman & Seed); and the antithesis, the elite which overthrew them, and who were subsequently overthrown as they knew would happen from prophecy.

There are two Mexico’s, the Mexico of Catholicism; and Freemason Mexico which outlawed and suppressed much Catholicism and her clerics. Mexican culture is, for the most part, only marginally Catholic as was more pronounced until the NAFTA Treaty concessions. After NAFTA, Catholic schools were, per my understanding, illegal. Seminaries were illegal in Mexico.

Blessed Virgin, nurturing the God-Man as the Lord’s living tabernacle, bring Christ to us all that we may know, love and serve Him. Beg God’s every blessing of mercy and grace upon the Americas, turning the hearts of the parents towards the children; and the hearts of the children towards their parents. Make us faithful, true and pure as you, spouse of the Holy Spirit, and eager for Christ’s return after every tribulation well-endured. AMEN

I’'m in no position at all to answer this question on behalf of an entire group of people.

Arlene Alice, I am not Hispanic. But may I share with you this…

Choice of words is important… people are legally Hispanic because they are Hispanic.

I don’t believe that you meant to slur an entire group of people because they can be categorized as Hispanic and therefore they are illegal.

I suppose (and I’m making a judgement call here, granted) that what you meant to say is “people who are Hispanic and are in America without having legally entered America.”

Or maybe you mean “people who are Hispanic and are illegally voting because they haven’t registered as an American citizen to vote but somehow have managed to have vote even though it’s illegal for them, like any person, to vote because they’re not an American citizen meeting the age requirements for voting?”

What is your issue here… that people who are not legally in this country are voting…? Or that they happen to be Hispanic and are an American citizen, as well?

I don’t mean to sound nasty… I’m really not being that way. If I am sounding nasty, lo siento.

I just know that some people I’ve met really DO think that because someone is Hispanic that they do not belong in America… even though they were born in America.

I’m just checking where you’re coming from so that I can understand your point more accurately. I just got sidetracked because it sounds to me like your issue is more about people who are not American citizens and are Hispanic who are voting the Democrat ticket … and not the Republican ticket

(as if the Demoratic ticket is the one that is most likely to have a candidate who is pro-abortion and so therefore will if they are given the chance vote pro-abortion even if their constituentcy wants them to vote pro-life)
:confused:

All I can say is, there is a lot more involved in voting for someone than whether or not that someone is pro-abortion or not.

The way someone votes does not necessarily mean that the person agrees with the politician on all issues. It simply means that the person usually agrees with most of them. Immigrants typically vote Democrat, because overall, things will be better for them if a Democrat is in office. Does that mean that all immigrants also support abortion if the Democratic candidate at that time happens to? Heck no.

Also, what if someone is anti-abortion but pro-death penalty? Does that make them the better candidate than the guy who is pro-abortion, anti-death penalty? In my opinion, while abortion is definitely something to consider while voting, there are many other issues to think about as well. You can’t boil it down to just that one issue.

This is really a thread which belongs on the politics forum, not the non-Catholic religions forum.

That said, I believe the problem with minority voters supporting pro-choice candidates is twofold: ignorance and poverty.

The pro-abort politician will soothsay and promise all sorts of benefits to the poor and ignorant, if only they will pull the lever with his/her name on it.

The pro-abort politician is so unscrupulous that he’ll step on the crushed skulls and severed limbs of unborn babies to crawl his way “to the top.”

Why would he not also scheme, lie, and seduce the poor and ignorant?

How can we turn this situation around?

Well, if these minority populations are open to the Truth, then it should be proclaimed. God is a God of Justice, and a God of Life! No one who loves God should ever, ever, for whatever reasons, vote for a politician who supports killing an innocent unborn child!

We need more courageous clergymen ~ of all denominations! ~ to preach that message fearlessly!

Oh, and while I’m on my soapbox, the filthy rich are even worse than the ignorant poor. They have the wherewithall to know and learn the Truth, but are seduced by the lack of morality in these politicans’ statements, and will throw not only their vote, but their public voice and millions of dollars to support the pro-aborts.

Virgin of Guadalupe, Mother of the Americas, who did, by your powerful intercession, rid Mexico of the sin of human sacrifice, we beg your intercession for an end to abortion in the United States of America. Please continue to implore the mercy of your Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, upon us all!

Pax Christi. <><

Veronica Ann:

There was no intention to slur an entire race over my sentence on illegals voting for Democrats in California. I will edit my post to clarify that matter. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

The fact remains that pro-abort Loretta Sanchez was voted into office under some very questionable voting practices. I understand illegals were especially saught after to pump up the Democratic Party vote. This voting fraud was given wide national press and was never thorougly investigated.

Using illegals, whatever ethnic background, seems to be a common voting procedure by the Democrats. In fact, here in Illinois, its not a myth that we have found dead people registered as voters or voters who visit the polls twice in one day! The motto here is…Vote today - vote often! Even “ghosts” come and vote Democrat!

However, it is puzzling to me why you would target this one weak phrase and not answer the question which I pose.

How can one have a devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and then turn around and vote for a pro-abort? That’s a complete betrayal of faith. I challenge Hispanics to give me an answer.

I believe Archbishop Burke of St. Louis is challenging ALL Catholics with the same question. If you vote for a pro-abort, don’t present yourself for Communion. This is in full conformity with Canon 917 and the basic doctrines of our faith.

You are complicit with the act of infanticide when you vote for a pro-abort - Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green or Brown Party, Communist, whatever.

I understand the ancient pre-Christian Maian culture of infanticide to appease their pagan “gods.” Are Hispanics reverting to their original paganism?

I would ask that of any Catholic race - Polish, German, English, Italian, etc., any Eastern European people whose pre-Christian roots were pagan. We take Communion at the altars of Christ, than turn around and pay homage at the bloody pagan altars of infanticide!

OUTRAGEOUS!

Swiss Guard:

Apparently you haven’t read your Catechism, the Scriptures, or the doctrinal guidelines of the Pope and Bishops.

The right to life is a pre-eminent issue. It is not, as the refuted “seamless garment” paradigm suggests, an issue that is horizontal and equal to all other issues, including the death penalty. Issues are placed in a hierachal, vertical construct…the right to life being paramount.

Read the following resources than come back and argue the point. The Catholic Church is not a “do-it-yourself” religion. It is a discipline that orders us to be obedient to the teachings of the Church. You have a “right” to be a Catholic or not. If you choose to be Catholic, you don’t have a right to denounce its teachings.

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/USBPSPOL.HTM

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/BURKECIV.HTM Some will say that the defense of innocent life is only one issue among many, that it is important but not fundamental. They are wrong. In the natural moral law, the good of life is the most fundamental good and the condition for the enjoyment of all other goods (cf. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, *Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics *[November 1998], n. 5). Recall the words of Pope John Paul II on the mission of the lay faithful in the Church and in the world:

ALSO READ THE USSCB’s: Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding the participation of Catholics in political life

The SWISS GUARD defends the Pope - and His teachings.

Arlene Alice, you are mistaken the seemless garment position is held by the Holy Father himself, who has said that with modern prison technologies that capitol punishment is unneeded, and even if needed it would be needed to protect society only, not to inflict blood-thirsty punishment and vengance. (Hardly a Catholic or Christian position).

A life is a life, is a life, whether taken by abortion, execution, or an unjust war. (Where are those weapons of mass destruction?).

In regard to the Republicans whom you are obviously enamored of. They have held power for sixteen of the last twenty-four years, and have done nothing … zero, to stop abortion.

They make noises to appease their religious-right voter base, but face it, they have done nothing to stop it.

I still think it is time for a CATHOLIC political party in the US, neither the Democrats or Republicans are satisfactory, and of course politics is a dirty business, no-one is ideologically pure.

Boppysbud: I think it is YOU who are wrong. The Holy Father and the Bishops have repeatedly stated that Respect for Life is the pre-eminent issue. Without LIFE there can be no other issue. Do a web search on their encylicals and statements.

CATHOLIC ANSWERS has published an outstanding pamphlet “VOTER’S GUIDE FOR SERIOUS CATHOLICS,” reiterating the Church’s teaching, which can be ordered from their home page.In it they name the 5 *** NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES***, naming Abortion as No. 1, Euthanasia No 2, Fetal Stem Cell Research No. 3, Human Cloning No. 4, Homosexual “marriage” No. 5. They advise: DO NOT BASE YOUR VOTE ON YOUR PARTY AFFILIATION, your earlier voting habits, or your family’s voting tradition. When will Catholics heed this advice?

On Capital Punishment: The Church HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT that the State has the right to punish criminals with the death sentence. Pope JPII feels a moratorium should be placed on the use of capital punishment in lieu of advanced methods of incarceration of criminals. The Pope took a lot of criticism on his viewpoint. Read the following statement posted on EWTNs web site which should clear this matter up.
www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/capital_punishment.htm
My personal belief is that you can be both pro-life and pro-capital punishment. I firmly believe Saddam Hussein should be murdered for his heinous crimes against humanity, so should Milosevic.

Are you forgetting pro-abort Clinton’s 8 years? A President who vetoed every pro-life bill coming to his desk. Apparently he didn’t “feel their pain!!!” President Bush’s pro-life record is OUTSTANDING!
SEE: freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140835/posts
Fr. Peter West, of Priests for Life, lists Bush’s sterling record.

A Catholic political Party would never have a chance in a country that still believes in the myth of “separation of church and state.”

I DO NOT make an idol out of ANY political party. I generally vote for a candidate who stands for the same issues that I consider paramount. Illinois has not seen a pro-life Democrat in years -other than Poshard, who lost his bid. Just look at what we have in “Catholic” Dick Durbin. A total disgrace!
[left] [/left]

WOW, THAT REALLY SOUNDS RACIST. BUT I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ANYWAY, MANY HISPANICS AND BLACKS LIVE IN POVERTY, SO THEREFORE, THEY VOTE VOR ANYONE THAT IS FOR THE “PEOPLE”, WHICH IS WHAT MANY CALL DEMOCRATS. TO SAY THAT HISPANICS AND BLACKS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE PRO-ABORT, IS REALLY WRONG.

Please note:

Unlike the others that have posted on this thread, I am hispanic. I am not from Mexico, I am from Puerto Rico. However, I have a special devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

I can say that Arlene Alice has hit the nail on the head. I also ask myself the same question every day: “How can so many hispanic people in America, who consider themselves catholic, vote for pro-abortion candidates?”. I simply cannot, in my mind, understand the reasoning behind this.

I have been in many discussions with fellow catholic hispanics about this issue (both legal and illegal). They try to rationalize that the republican candidates are somehow “out to get them”. They try to put things like the economy, jobs, the war in Iraq, the death penalty, etc., etc. before moral issues such as abortion. :confused: This , to me, seems so backwards and against the Magisterium, that it makes my head spin. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I agree with some of the explanations previously posted, and have taken it upon myself to become better informed and try to explain to my hispanic brothers and sisters how wrong their thinking is. I really believe it has to do with pure ignorance, paranoia, and to some extent, selfishness. Hispanic’s prioritization of their value system is not in line with the Church’s mandate, most of the time, and this really frustrates me. :tsktsk:

There are too many hispanics also that fraudelently appear as victims in order to gain piety, attention, and $$$. :crying: I know this is hard language, but it’s the truth. Of course, there are many valid cases where injustices exist, and these must be eliminated, but by far, the biggest injustice in our society is abortion. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Let’s work together to eliminate abortion, and then we’ll move on to attacking the next social injustice. :thumbsup:

Jorge.

boppysbud:

Republicans have done much more than democrats to stop abortion. You cannot say that they have not done anything to stop abortion. This is a very broad blanket statement. By the same token, you cannot say that democrats have done everything to legalize abortion. The exeption confirms the rule, and there are exeptions on both sides. :wink:

Democrats have, for the most part, turned their backs to the right to life, with a few exceptions.

By the way, I am neither republican, nor democrat. I am christian and catholic. However, I think I can safely say that there are more republicans that are in-line with the Church’s teachings than democrats. :hmmm:

Jorge.

[quote=nordskoven]There are two Mexico’s, the Mexico of Catholicism; and Freemason Mexico which outlawed and suppressed much Catholicism and her clerics. Mexican culture is, for the most part, only marginally Catholic as was more pronounced until the NAFTA Treaty concessions. After NAFTA, Catholic schools were, per my understanding, illegal. Seminaries were illegal in Mexico.
[/quote]

You are saying some very interesting things here. Since I used to live in Mexico (college semester) I would like you to cite your sources in relation to NAFTA’s effects.

Here are facts/observations about Mexico and some politics:

  1. The Mexican constitution does not name the seperation of church and state, but instead, has passed a law that church and state cannot mix. The Mexican president cannot be seen worshiping in any way or for standing for any particular faith.

  2. The Mexican constitution guarantees the right to education. However, as of 1994, 90% of the population was illiterate because they did not have enough schools or people could not afford to send their children to the local schools. NAFTA may have affected this—I don’t know for sure.

  3. I observed many very pious Catholics in Mexico, and the country is filled with beautiful churches which were built in colonial times. Their depictions of Jesus were graphic and I actually went to a church which contained the uncorrupted body of Blessed (or Saint?) Sebastian. The churches were always full of people in private devotion. We can learn from them.

I also attended a church is San Miguel Tzinacapan in the Sierra Madres. This is a very poor town. The people there were mainly indiginous and Spanish was a second language. We wre there on the feast day of San Miguel (St. Michael) and they incorporated traditional native dances with worship and Mass. It was incredible! And these people’s Catholicism cannot be questioned. There was some blending of cultures, but it was beautiful and just goes to show how God can reach so many and in so many different ways. I could go on about this topic.

Although we were strangers we seemed to be welcomed by all, and we all observed that in spite of their poverty, they seemed to be among the happiest people we have ever met.
Protestantism is spreading there, however, but I never saw the “two Mexico’s” portrayed in your post. If you have further information or observations I’m very interested.

[quote=Arlene Alice] Read the following resources than come back and argue the point. The Catholic Church is not a “do-it-yourself” religion. It is a discipline that orders us to be obedient to the teachings of the Church. You have a “right” to be a Catholic or not. If you choose to be Catholic, you don’t have a right to denounce its teachings.
[/quote]

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to prove by saying this, but I agree. However, just because you vote for someone who supports abortion does not necessarily mean that you agree with it (which is the only point I was trying to make earlier). I am utterly and completely against abortion.

If a person votes for someone who supports it, perhaps it is because he or she is turning a blind eye to that aspect of the campaign and focusing rather on the positive. I’m not saying this is right; only trying to understand. The question was “Why does this happen?” and I still consider that to be a possible answer.

You, on the other hand, seem only content to argue and not to understand anyone. I resent your closing “Swiss Guard” comment- It insinuates that I am trying to disprove or attack the teachings of the Pope or the Church, which is definitely not the case. I am on your side and I always have been.

We’re both Catholics, for crying out loud- We need to stick together! If there is something that a fellow Catholic is mistaken about (such as the death-penalty thing…I had no idea), you correct him and move on without trying to belittle him and throw in a few baseless (insinuated) accusations. I defend the faith every single day…and I will continue to do so as best I can.

Anyway…With any luck “The Voter’s Guide for Serious Catholics” will reach more than just the “serious” Catholics. I am under the impression that most of the Catholics who vote for campaigns with anti-Catholic positions are ignorant of the fact.

God Bless.

Swiss Guard: You say…In your opinion, abortion is just one of the issues to think about when voting. That is the premise of the Seamless Garment in a nutshell.

Exactly, it’s YOUR OPINION…not the Pope or the Bishops…who are the teaching authorities of the Church. And its to those teaching authorities that we, as Catholics, must give our utmost consideration. They have made it quite clear that there are **** UN-NEGOTIABLE ***** issues, the first being ABORTION.

So if you are considering a Democratic candidate who is pro-abortion but wants to tax and spend for the environment, or pay our dues at the UN, or Save the Whale, or clone people who look like Brittany Spears, etc., because you think those are equally relevant issues, it’s still OK?

56% of the Catholic vote went to pro-abort candidates because they may have thought the same way. That’s why I’m challenging Hispanic Catholics in this thread who vote for pro-abort Democrats because of all the taxes that will be spent on their behalf. Where is their “well-formed Catholic conscienses” here?

My style of expression may wrankle you. You must excuse me…I DO feel passionate about the issue of wholesale legalized infantacide.

Perhaps you can explain why you chose the name Swiss Guard. What does it mean to you?

[quote=Delgadoajj]Please note:

Unlike the others that have posted on this thread, I am hispanic. I am not from Mexico, I am from Puerto Rico. However, I have a special devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

I can say that Arlene Alice has hit the nail on the head. I also ask myself the same question every day: “How can so many hispanic people in America, who consider themselves catholic, vote for pro-abortion candidates?”. I simply cannot, in my mind, understand the reasoning behind this.

I have been in many discussions with fellow catholic hispanics about this issue (both legal and illegal). They try to rationalize that the republican candidates are somehow “out to get them”. They try to put things like the economy, jobs, the war in Iraq, the death penalty, etc., etc. before moral issues such as abortion. :confused: This , to me, seems so backwards and against the Magisterium, that it makes my head spin. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I agree with some of the explanations previously posted, and have taken it upon myself to become better informed and try to explain to my hispanic brothers and sisters how wrong their thinking is. I really believe it has to do with pure ignorance, paranoia, and to some extent, selfishness. Hispanic’s prioritization of their value system is not in line with the Church’s mandate, most of the time, and this really frustrates me. :tsktsk:

There are too many hispanics also that fraudelently appear as victims in order to gain piety, attention, and $$$. :crying: I know this is hard language, but it’s the truth. Of course, there are many valid cases where injustices exist, and these must be eliminated, but by far, the biggest injustice in our society is abortion. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Let’s work together to eliminate abortion, and then we’ll move on to attacking the next social injustice. :thumbsup:

Jorge.
[/quote]

UM IM MEXICAN.

RomanRyan1088 wrote=

UM IM MEXICAN. :dancing:

RomanRyan1088:

Me alegro de que estés participando en este foro. Me da mucho gusto de que otros hispanos tomen la iniciativa de aprender a defender su fé y los derechos humanos, comenzando con el derecho a la vida. :wave:

Tu hermano en Cristo,

Jorge.

RomanRyan:

I’m sorry I give you the impression of being “racial” because I chose Hispanics in this thread to challenge them on their obvious Democratic/pro-abort voting record. The voting statistics make it clear that Hispanics are the fastest growing Catholic voting block in America, and yet they choose to favor a pro-abort party. I base my challenge on this thread based on those statistics alone, not on any racial prejudice.

You reveal to us that you are Mexican. Doesn’t it bother you?
Apparently it bothers some Hispanics, noting the reply from Delgadoajj. He thinks I hit the “nail on the head!”

I am an American of Polish descent. It bothers me when members in my family cannot pry themselves loose from their “baptism” to the Democratic Party and consistently vote for pro-abort candidates. It tears at my heart, and I tell them so.

We have an Irish Catholic secretary who votes pro-abort Democrat. She has a devotion to the Rosary and still claims she is pro-choice as a woman’s rights issue. I get in REAL heated discussions with her - but to no avail. She tells me…Blessed Mary had only one child! What is that supposed to mean? That Mary endorses abortion because she had only one child!!!

I have challenged Evangelical, “bible-believing” Christians, who apparenlty haven’t read the fifth Commandment because they support abortion. I have challenged Jews, who can remember the Holocaust quite well, but are blind to the abortion Holocaust before their very eyes.

One sidewalk counselor I know says she often sees cars coming to the clinic with rosaries dangling from their rear view mirror! Apparently, these mothers leave their morals out in the car while they go into the clinic to murder their babies!!! Outrageous!

Can you see how crazy we can get in our thinking when we allow worldy arguments to overtake our moral obligations.

I remember being rejected for writing an op/ed piece for Mexican newspapers challenging Hispanics on their pro-abort voting record. I was told, point blank, it will not be published…TOO CONTROVERSIAL!

May I ask you…who is publicly challenging Hispanics to vote for life instead of for what Uncle Sam can hand out? Are your priests? Your Bishops? Your community leaders? Your legislators? Your media?

May I ask you…who is publicly challenging Hispanics to vote for life instead of for what Uncle Sam can hand out? Are your priests? Your Bishops? Your community leaders? Your legislators? Your media?

In my parish, Nothing is said about Abortion. The bishop i don’t think has EVER said nothing about not voting for Pro-choice politicians. But i gave you a reason why many hispanics are democrats, and support Por-choice canidates, because they put themselves before others, many i know who are living in poverty believe that Democrat = For the people, which i have debated with some because if a Democrat was “For the People”, then arn’t babies people. But i can see why these people would vote for Pro-Choice can, because to tell you the truth, when you have trouble feeding your family, and a politician comes along and says he is for the people, then believe me, you are ganna go for him, because you are just worried about your family. Another reason i believe they are is because of the language barrier, as im sure many know, Hispanics Speak Spanish, and the Spanish channels don’t talk about whats going on in america, but in latin american countries. And many don’t know what the church teaches about Abortion or anything like that. An no im not calling you a racist, I just felt like you classified all hispanics and Blacks as pro-choice. Well hope that explains it in a nutshell.

[quote=Delgadoajj]RomanRyan1088 wrote=

UM IM MEXICAN. :dancing:

RomanRyan1088:

Me alegro de que estés participando en este foro. Me da mucho gusto de que otros hispanos tomen la iniciativa de aprender a defender su fé y los derechos humanos, comenzando con el derecho a la vida. :wave:

Tu hermano en Cristo,

Jorge.
[/quote]

Lol, you might find this funny, but i an Mexican, but don’t speak spanish fluently. I understand your post, it’s just i cant write you back in spanish. I just wish that there were more Hispanics who understood the teaching of the church.

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