Historicity of Flood and Babel?


#1

Historicity of Flood and Babel?

[FONT=times new roman][FONT=arial]I do see two principles in operation in fallen man:

Anti-Baptismal Disposition: man has little regard for Divine Truth, nor for Divine Law

Anti-Marital Disposition toward God: man turns from seeking union and embrace of God as Spouse in Covenant to a mocking counterfeit: the Whore, united, but in perverse ambition for purely brute materialistic pursuits.

I am arguing man embraces these two principles in punctuated succession, each requiring Divine chastisement to frustrate, hence, something Flood, and Confounding at Babel, something like it, not necessarily literal.

The Catechism does not seem to demand this is so, but seems to suggest some Divine Involvement, and not merely a natural explanation for man's ultimate division into nations

Christ seems to call forth these two principles in the mini parable:

if you build a tower, make you sure have what it takes

If you have 10,000, can you defeat 20,000

man, in one fallen sense, does not love his neighbor and harms him, the violation of the decalogue, ultimately war

man, in another fallen sense, throws down the weapons, fuses nations and builds a tower, but it is a fragile peace, purely selfishly motivated.

can these differing aspects of the fallen nature be fused and gelled and explained in antiquity so that there are not positively miraculous, but punctuated, successive corrective responses from God to these principles?

as far as I can see, this is like asking, derivatively, can a child survive growing up without any discipline, whether to wrong doing, or to restrain recreation?

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#2

The events recorded in the Bible actually happened. To say otherwise is heretical.


#3

[quote="devoutchristian, post:2, topic:311651"]
The events recorded in the Bible actually happened. To say otherwise is heretical.

[/quote]

It is acceptable to believe that some events are allegorical.


#4

Hi Devout,

In the famous letter to Cardinal Suhard. the Pontifical Biblical Commission laid down the principles for the interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis.

[FONT=Times New Roman]The question of the literary forms of the first eleven chapters of Genesis is far more obscure and complex. These literary forms do not correspond to any of our classical categories and cannot be judged in the light of the Greco-Latin or modern literary types.

It is therefore impossible to deny or to affirm their historicity as a whole without unduly applying to them norms of a literary type under which they cannot be classed. If it is agreed not to see in these chapters history in the classical and modern sense, it must be admitted also that known scientific facts do not allow a positive solution of all the problems which they present.

The first duty in this matter incumbent on scientific exegesis consists in the careful study of all the problems literary, scientific, historical, cultural, and religious connected with these chapters; in the next place is required a close examination of the literary methods of the ancient oriental peoples, their psychology, their manner of expressing themselves and even their notion of historical truth the requisite, in a word, is to assemble without preformed judgements all the material of the palaeontological and historical, epigraphical and literary sciences. It is only in this way that there is hope of attaining a clearer view of the true nature of certain narratives in the first chapters of Genesis.

To declare a priori that these narratives do not contain history in the modern sense of the word might easily be understood to mean that they do not contain history in any sense, whereas they relate in simple and figurative language, adapted to the understanding of mankind at a lower stage of development, the fundamental truths underlying the divine scheme of salvation, as well as a popular description of the origins of the human race and of the chosen people. In the meantime it is necessary to practise patience which is part of prudence and the wisdom of life. This also is inculcated by the Holy Father in the Encyclical already quoted: “No one”, he says, "should be surprised that all the difficulties have not yet been clarified or solved.

But that is no reason for losing courage or forgetting that in the branches of human study it cannot be otherwise than in nature, where beginnings grow little by little, where the produce of the soil is not gathered except after prolonged labour. There is ground, therefore, for hoping that (these difficulties) which today appear most complicated and arduous, will eventually, thanks to constant effort, admit of complete clarification" (AAS [1943] 318).of mankind at a lower stage of development, the fundamental truths underlying the divine scheme of salvation, as well as a popular description of the origins of the human race and of the chosen people. In the meantime it is necessary to practise patience which is part of prudence and the wisdom of life. This also is inculcated by the Holy Father in the Encyclical already quoted: “No one”, he says, “should be surprised that all the difficulties have not yet been clarified or solved. But that is no reason for losing courage or forgetting that in the branches of human study it cannot be otherwise than in nature, where beginnings grow little by little, where the produce of the soil is not gathered except after prolonged labour. There is ground, therefore, for hoping that (these difficulties) which today appear most complicated and arduous, will eventually, thanks to constant effort, admit of complete clarification” (AAS [1943] 318).[/FONT]

http://www.thegodpod.com/thegp/content/letter-cardinal-suhard

The Church herself does not lightly accuse persons of heresy. You should master the subject before making a judgment.

Verbum


#5

I agree, Verbum, devout cannot be so bold as to accuse of heresy.

I still see elements of depth in these first eleven chapters.

I in fact see the two great episodes as indicative of the two great base sacraments had by all Christians of good will and form, even heretics:

baptism
marriage

so that the first two great actions of allegocial history are a Baptism, a flood

and a marriage, the covenannt with abraham, so that aptly also....

the great lies of the fall are their antithesis, a mockery of the two base sacramental signs:

Anti-Baptismal Desire: No faih, No acceptance of Divine Truth, no repentance, no striving to love God
Anti-Marital desire toward God: seeking as one's ultimate fulfillment not Marriage to one's CreaTOR, but union with the CreaTION, materialism.

I would argue anything ever wicked comes under these two umbrellas:

And the false prophet had two horns, like a lamb, but spake as a dragon.

The lamb has seven horns, perhaps seven great hinges of grace power, the sacrametns, the dragon mocks two of them, baptism, marriage, the sacraments of heretics, into the ultimate heresy: irreligiosity, materialism


#6

[quote="runningdude, post:3, topic:311651"]
It is acceptable to believe that some events are allegorical.

[/quote]

No it isn't. It is acceptable to interpret details figuratively, but it is not acceptable to believe that the events didn't happen. To say that the events did not happen is, as I said before, heretical.


#7

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